Atheists, the death penalty and abortion...

[catfish]

1. You refuse to acknowledge the individuality of a fetus or zygote.

No, I acknowledge that it has individual DNA. But that doesn't make it an individual human.

What is it then?

If left alone, what will it become?
If born, what does it grow into?
After the onset of puberty, what is it?
If it loses consciousness and all bodily functions yet is still alive, what is it?

[EGross]

Are you aware that there are those who belong to religions where contraception is forbidden, and the woman is required to submit to her husband? So saying "Made your bed, you lie in it" seems to be a broad generalization. The woman with her 10th kid, her husband forces her, perhaps brutally, because he is satisfied with her status as a maid, cook, and 2-minute sex toy. She has been taught, and it is echoed by society that she has no control, that her body belongs to the owner, and she has no say in her present or her future.

Abortion is a debate to maintain control, based religious views of who is in charge and the role of a woman. It's a woman's issue in that women who do not want to accept that religious role of servant will fight for the right, even though they would never consider doing it. It is a declaration of "I don't give a shit what your God says about it, I am nobody's slave!". Hence the right to choose, even if that choice is to have the child, which is also a choice.

Because every case is unique. Every case is different. The woman with 4 in the womb, and the doctor says that they will all die unless he kills one. The one in the womb that has no brain, and when it leaves the womb it may live a year or two, but will never develope or survive. Rape. The list can go on. With some of these, we permit the woman to have control, and again with restriction, and with others, we forbid the woman to have any control at all.

In any case, I am anti-abortion and anti-death penalty.

[Norfolk And Chance]

I can't see how the death penalty can be a punishment as the one that needs the punishment cannot experience the punishment.

Does the condemned not usually experience a number of years of experience of punishment in prison, knowing they are going to die? I can't think of anything worse than having a death sentence hanging over my head, waiting for my date to be confirmed.

As Shell said, once the sentence is carried out, it is a solution rather than a punishment. The interim years for me consitute punishment.

[genkaus]

What is it then?

A collection of cells in process of developing into a human.

If left alone, what will it become?

Dead tissue. It requires constant sustenance from the mother and cannot survive without it.

If born, what does it grow into?

Assuming it is provided with necessary care - a human. Otherwise, a dead baby.

After the onset of puberty, what is it?

Human.

If it loses consciousness and all bodily functions yet is still alive, what is it?

Still human. Loss of consciousness does not signify the loss of capacity for consciousness.

[NoraBrimstone]

afoetusisnotafuckingbaby!

What is it then?

It's a foetus.

And why should anyone have a moral objection against a woman's choice for abortion if a fetus isn't a baby?

Why indeed?

[EGross]

And why should anyone have a moral objection against a woman's choice for abortion if a fetus isn't a baby?

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have been about owning and controlling women. As you noted, it is about a woman's choice that a "moral objection" is raised. And the objection is a religious one more than a moral one.

For example, in Judaism, a fetus, even as the woman is going into contractions, is not a living thing in and of itself, and so if it never exits and exists for a specified period of time on it's own, it was never alive. For a living person, the death would require sitting shiva. For one that was never alive, there is no such requirement, which is the case.

And yet, despite this, the dogma behind it puts pressure on the woman to keep it, even if there will be great hardship because of the other 10 kids who are living at home and the unemployed father.

So it is not really about definiing the fetus as a living independant being, it really is about "What would God want?" Even if there are those, like catfish, who will deny any religious reason, it is an issue driven by the religous to force their dogma, and so if the intent is not there, it is still driven by religious forces. And as an athiest, I see that statement as controlling. And in the USA, the Religious Right act like every woman, if left unfettered, would be getting abortions 2 or 3 times a year.

Based on my experience of 2 women that I have known who have done this, one, decades later, still regrets it, and the other took years just to talk about it. It is not a choice made lightly, but despite the dogma that "God doesn't like that", it is still her choice in many countries, albeit, a choice that women still need to fight for, even if they will never choose to do so.

[catfish]

What is it then?

A collection of cells in process of developing into a human.

If left alone, what will it become?

Dead tissue. It requires constant sustenance from the mother and cannot survive without it.

If born, what does it grow into?

Assuming it is provided with necessary care - a human. Otherwise, a dead baby.

After the onset of puberty, what is it?

Human.

If it loses consciousness and all bodily functions yet is still alive, what is it?

Still human. Loss of consciousness does not signify the loss of capacity for consciousness.

The answer is a human for all of the questions.
.

[KichigaiNeko]

no it is not.

It is a bunch of cells (within the 10 week period) so in that case you are doing no more than having a period.

Get over it guys. Women will do what is needed

[catfish]

You can call it whatever you want to to justisfy killing it. It won't change the fact of what it is...

[genkaus]

The answer is a human for all of the questions.

If the fetus is going to develop into a human if left alone, then you should have no objection to taking it out of the womb and leaving it alone.