If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?

[orogenicman]

@ orogeicman

Show me where God calls for murder and rape, you're the one who said
He did so show us, those verses you used do not say anything about murder and rape.
You need to bring on some new ones and please use those that say murder and rape,
if you can't please stop wasting our time.

There is a simple solution to this dilemma. Just admit that you believe that killing the women and children of your enemies is morally justified, and that taking those women not killed by such action as wives is also morally justified. If you do believe it, then you have given me evidence in support of my thesis that the Bible is a textbook for eliciting such atrocities. If you don't believe that that behavior is morally justified, then you must entertain the notion that such behavior rises to the level of murder and rape. Simply saying that it is god's will isn't going to do it. Jim Jones said the same thing, and nearly 1,000 people took their own lives as a result.

[fr0d0]

You are a liar. Plain and simple orogenicman.

You justify your lie by comparing Gods fair judgement with a clearly unfair judgement. To you, there is no perfect judge God. So you have to replace him with a decision maker that cannot judge fairly.

[Zarith]

You too lol. If no one was raped according to the evidence you are presenting how am I supposed to be defending rape?

Are you seriously reading words that aren't there? Is that the extent of your delusion?

I'm finding this unbelievable. How many times can you guys argue that black is white.

Save the outrage, the statement I made is not based on scripture, but rather logic. It applies to anybody -- Christian or otherwise -- who believes that right and wrong are defined by god's desires, as opposed to god's desires being defined by right and wrong. It's just Euthyphro plain and simple. I don't know which category you are in and I don't really care.

While I think that a plain reading of 1 Samuel 15 is not in your favor, I'll leave it to you and orogenicman to hash out the finer points of killing versus murder and rape versus wife-taking.

[orogenicman]

You are a liar. Plain and simple orogenicman.

You justify your lie by comparing Gods fair judgement with a clearly unfair judgement. To you, there is no perfect judge God. So you have to replace him with a decision maker that cannot judge fairly.

The fact that you believe that killing women and children of your enemies has some moral value or else is "god's fair judgement" clearly supports my assertion of your sociopathic tendencies. Congratulations.

[Godscreated]

@ orogeicman

Show me where God calls for murder and rape, you're the one who said
He did so show us, those verses you used do not say anything about murder and rape.
You need to bring on some new ones and please use those that say murder and rape,
if you can't please stop wasting our time.

There is a simple solution to this dilemma. Just admit that you believe that killing the women and children of your enemies is morally justified, and that taking those women not killed by such action as wives is also morally justified. If you do believe it, then you have given me evidence in support of my thesis that the Bible is a textbook for eliciting such atrocities. If you don't believe that that behavior is morally justified, then you must entertain the notion that such behavior rises to the level of murder and rape. Simply saying that it is god's will isn't going to do it. Jim Jones said the same thing, and nearly 1,000 people took their own lives as a result.

If Jim Jone's followers had read the Bible they would not have met such a fate.
The killing of my enemies is not morally justified, I have not the moral authority to do such a thing, I can not judge my enemy and actually Christ calls me to love my enemies. He also says to feed and cloth my enemy if I find them hungry and cloth them if I find them naked. I will say this one more time, see if it will get through your thick skull. You are trying to drag the OT into the NT and that want work. God was establishing His people to bring in the Christ in the future, He established them (much as the church today), since then Christ came and God set up His church through the Gentiles to carry on the mission of Christ. There is no more need for the same judgement on people today and just to remind you it was not murder nor rape.

[Zarith]

There is a simple solution to this dilemma. Just admit that you believe that killing the women and children of your enemies is morally justified, and that taking those women not killed by such action as wives is also morally justified. If you do believe it, then you have given me evidence in support of my thesis that the Bible is a textbook for eliciting such atrocities. If you don't believe that that behavior is morally justified, then you must entertain the notion that such behavior rises to the level of murder and rape. Simply saying that it is god's will isn't going to do it. Jim Jones said the same thing, and nearly 1,000 people took their own lives as a result.

If Jim Jone's followers had read the Bible they would not have met such a fate.
The killing of my enemies is not morally justified, I have not the moral authority to do such a thing, I can not judge my enemy and actually Christ calls me to love my enemies. He also says to feed and cloth my enemy if I find them hungry and cloth them if I find them naked. I will say this one more time, see if it will get through your thick skull. You are trying to drag the OT into the NT and that want work. God was establishing His people to bring in the Christ in the future, He established them (much as the church today), since then Christ came and God set up His church through the Gentiles to carry on the mission of Christ. There is no more need for the same judgement on people today and just to remind you it was not murder nor rape.

But (according to someone like you) it was morally justified at the time, and the justification is typically something along the lines of "because God willed it".

You then go on to claim that the rules have changed and God could not / would not will such a thing today, but if the rules have changed once already, who is to say they can't change again?

If God told you, "Look, new set of rules to go by", or even "Do this thing for me", are you going to start quoting scripture to him, and explaining to him the ministry of Jesus?

[fr0d0]

It applies to anybody -- Christian or otherwise -- who believes that right and wrong are defined by god's desires, as opposed to god's desires being defined by right and wrong.

Our difference is that you don't confront the Christian belief that God is good. This is the perspective of the biblical narrative.

Your version of god gets to play fast and loose with his nature. That's all good fun.

[Zarith]

Our difference is that you don't confront the Christian belief that God is good. This is the perspective of the biblical narrative.

But the statement "God is good" has 2 possible interpretations, with very different implications. Surely the believer has to at least decide which it is they believe.

Your version of god gets to play fast and loose with his nature. That's all good fun.

Does God's nature have goodness, or is goodness the property of being in God's nature? This gets us nowhere.

[orogenicman]

There is a simple solution to this dilemma. Just admit that you believe that killing the women and children of your enemies is morally justified, and that taking those women not killed by such action as wives is also morally justified. If you do believe it, then you have given me evidence in support of my thesis that the Bible is a textbook for eliciting such atrocities. If you don't believe that that behavior is morally justified, then you must entertain the notion that such behavior rises to the level of murder and rape. Simply saying that it is god's will isn't going to do it. Jim Jones said the same thing, and nearly 1,000 people took their own lives as a result.

If Jim Jone's followers had read the Bible they would not have met such a fate.
The killing of my enemies is not morally justified, I have not the moral authority to do such a thing, I can not judge my enemy and actually Christ calls me to love my enemies. He also says to feed and cloth my enemy if I find them hungry and cloth them if I find them naked. I will say this one more time, see if it will get through your thick skull. You are trying to drag the OT into the NT and that want work. God was establishing His people to bring in the Christ in the future, He established them (much as the church today), since then Christ came and God set up His church through the Gentiles to carry on the mission of Christ. There is no more need for the same judgement on people today and just to remind you it was not murder nor rape.

Well, that's a load of crap because I've said nothing whatsoever about the new testament.

And yes it most certainly was murder and rape.

---

It applies to anybody -- Christian or otherwise -- who believes that right and wrong are defined by god's desires, as opposed to god's desires being defined by right and wrong.

Our difference is that you don't confront the Christian belief that God is good. This is the perspective of the biblical narrative.

Your version of god gets to play fast and loose with his nature. That's all good fun.

The only versions of god are those told by religionists. And all of them are deluding themselves. There is no god any more than there is a tooth fairy.

[Godscreated]

If Jim Jone's followers had read the Bible they would not have met such a fate.
The killing of my enemies is not morally justified, I have not the moral authority to do such a thing, I can not judge my enemy and actually Christ calls me to love my enemies. He also says to feed and cloth my enemy if I find them hungry and cloth them if I find them naked. I will say this one more time, see if it will get through your thick skull. You are trying to drag the OT into the NT and that want work. God was establishing His people to bring in the Christ in the future, He established them (much as the church today), since then Christ came and God set up His church through the Gentiles to carry on the mission of Christ. There is no more need for the same judgement on people today and just to remind you it was not murder nor rape.

Well, that's a load of crap because I've said nothing whatsoever about the new testament.

And yes it most certainly was murder and rape.

Then you need to prove your claim, we claim that the verses mean what they say through judgement, you claim something different the burden of proof belongs to you.