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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 18, 2013 at 10:46 pm
(This post was last modified: June 18, 2013 at 10:49 pm by Cato.)
(June 18, 2013 at 10:32 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 18, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orogenicman Wrote: Well, that's a load of crap because I've said nothing whatsoever about the new testament.
And yes it most certainly was murder and rape.
Then you need to prove your claim, we claim that the verses mean what they say through judgement, you claim something different the burden of proof belongs to you.
Where does one obtain a judgement decoder ring?
Others may have to pass along my inquiry. GC put me on ignore for bashing Protestants (his word was Christians) when I gave examples showing that Catholic priests weren't the only devout fucking children.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 18, 2013 at 11:07 pm
(June 18, 2013 at 10:46 pm)cato123 Wrote: (June 18, 2013 at 10:32 pm)Godschild Wrote: Then you need to prove your claim, we claim that the verses mean what they say through judgement, you claim something different the burden of proof belongs to you.
Where does one obtain a judgement decoder ring?
Others may have to pass along my inquiry. GC put me on ignore for bashing Protestants (his word was Christians) when I gave examples showing that Catholic priests weren't the only devout fucking children.
You were on ignore a long time before that. The Bible will tell you if you would study it.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 18, 2013 at 11:19 pm
(June 18, 2013 at 10:32 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 18, 2013 at 7:23 pm)orogenicman Wrote: Well, that's a load of crap because I've said nothing whatsoever about the new testament.
And yes it most certainly was murder and rape.
Then you need to prove your claim, we claim that the verses mean what they say through judgement, you claim something different the burden of proof belongs to you.
Yes, it is quite apparent that you believe that your god told the Israelites to kill the women and children of their enemies and to take a bunch of women as wives against their will. And that is exactly the kind of sociopathic belief system that has been used to justify the slaughter of human beings for 4,000 years. Congratulations.
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 18, 2013 at 11:23 pm
(June 18, 2013 at 11:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 18, 2013 at 10:46 pm)cato123 Wrote: Where does one obtain a judgement decoder ring?
Others may have to pass along my inquiry. GC put me on ignore for bashing Protestants (his word was Christians) when I gave examples showing that Catholic priests weren't the only devout fucking children.
You were on ignore a long time before that. The Bible will tell you if you would study it.
Apparently I'm not 'still' on ignore. A little dig, but seriously....
Do you understand my joke? You claim that I can only understand what Biblical verses mean through 'judgement'. What does this mean? At face value, you are telling the rest of the world that the written words inspired by God don't mean what they say. One can only understand if they interpret the words with 'judgement'. What does this mean?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 19, 2013 at 1:42 am
(June 18, 2013 at 11:23 pm)cato123 Wrote: (June 18, 2013 at 11:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: You were on ignore a long time before that. The Bible will tell you if you would study it.
Apparently I'm not 'still' on ignore. A little dig, but seriously....
Do you understand my joke? You claim that I can only understand what Biblical verses mean through 'judgement'. What does this mean? At face value, you are telling the rest of the world that the written words inspired by God don't mean what they say. One can only understand if they interpret the words with 'judgement'. What does this mean?
Simple, God pronounced His judgement on those people and then decided there punishment. He had Israel to carry out the punishment, this showed the others in the region God was with Israel and that His judgement would be carried out against them. As I said earlier in this post, God was ridding the land of the sinful people that would lead His people astray, He wanted Israel to scourge the land so they could have a fresh start with no outside influence. They did not obey Him and that's why archaeologist find Ashtaroth and Baal idols in their digs of Israels cities. This is why they misinterpret that God had a wife, Israel just kept messing things up from the time they left Egypt till the time they were exiled into Assyria and Babylon. God's judgement against His people, God judges all eventually.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 19, 2013 at 1:53 am
(June 19, 2013 at 1:42 am)Godschild Wrote: (June 18, 2013 at 11:23 pm)cato123 Wrote: Apparently I'm not 'still' on ignore. A little dig, but seriously....
Do you understand my joke? You claim that I can only understand what Biblical verses mean through 'judgement'. What does this mean? At face value, you are telling the rest of the world that the written words inspired by God don't mean what they say. One can only understand if they interpret the words with 'judgement'. What does this mean?
Simple, God pronounced His judgement on those people and then decided there punishment. He had Israel to carry out the punishment, this showed the others in the region God was with Israel and that His judgement would be carried out against them. As I said earlier in this post, God was ridding the land of the sinful people that would lead His people astray, He wanted Israel to scourge the land so they could have a fresh start with no outside influence. They did not obey Him and that's why archaeologist find Ashtaroth and Baal idols in their digs of Israels cities. This is why they misinterpret that God had a wife, Israel just kept messing things up from the time they left Egypt till the time they were exiled into Assyria and Babylon. God's judgement against His people, God judges all eventually.
If your god passes 'judgment' on people in this heinous fashion, then he's a monster, not to be worshipped, but to be opposed. On the other hand, anyone with a brain understands that the Israelis used their own peoples' beliefs to achieve mass murder and rape on a people they openly despised. And it wasn't the first or last time they did this sort of thing, nor were they the only ones in the near east doing it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.
'The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and seal. It could not be expressed better.'
-- Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens
"I think that in the discussion of natural problems we ought to begin not with the scriptures, but with experiments, demonstrations, and observations".
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
"In short, Meyer has shown that his first disastrous book was not a fluke: he is capable of going into any field in which he has no training or research experience and botching it just as badly as he did molecular biology. As I've written before, if you are a complete amateur and don't understand a subject, don't demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect by writing a book about it and proving your ignorance to everyone else! "
- Dr. Donald Prothero
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 19, 2013 at 2:19 am
(June 19, 2013 at 1:42 am)Godschild Wrote: Simple, God pronounced His judgement on those people and then decided there punishment. He had Israel to carry out the punishment, this showed the others in the region God was with Israel and that His judgement would be carried out against them. As I said earlier in this post, God was ridding the land of the sinful people that would lead His people astray, He wanted Israel to scourge the land so they could have a fresh start with no outside influence.
![[Image: 944270_136419016553296_1765054029_n.jpg]](https://photos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/s720x720/944270_136419016553296_1765054029_n.jpg)
Simple, God pronounced His judgement on those people and then decided there punishment. He had Germany to carry out the punishment, this showed the others in the region God was with Germany and that His judgement would be carried out against them. As I said earlier in this post, God was ridding the land of the sinful people that would lead His people astray, He wanted Hitler to scourge the land so they could have a fresh start with no outside influence. [/
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
![[Image: tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif]](https://66.media.tumblr.com/5fb74c6d16622fb3dbb358509c9aec03/tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif)
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 19, 2013 at 2:22 am
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2013 at 2:25 am by fr0d0.)
(June 18, 2013 at 6:35 pm)Zarith Wrote: (June 18, 2013 at 6:16 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Our difference is that you don't confront the Christian belief that God is good. This is the perspective of the biblical narrative. But the statement "God is good" has 2 possible interpretations, with very different implications. Surely the believer has to at least decide which it is they believe.
Not at all. Goodness has only one meaning. To be good. What you're suggesting isn't good. It's a very much lower standard. One that would contradict the nature of God and the logical possibility of his existence.
(June 18, 2013 at 6:35 pm)Zarith Wrote: Quote:Your version of god gets to play fast and loose with his nature. That's all good fun.
Does God's nature have goodness, or is goodness the property of being in God's nature? This gets us nowhere.
God doesn't 'have' goodness. God -is- good.
Goodness isn't a property of God. God -is- goodness.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 19, 2013 at 4:19 am
(June 19, 2013 at 2:22 am)fr0d0 Wrote: (June 18, 2013 at 6:35 pm)Zarith Wrote: But the statement "God is good" has 2 possible interpretations, with very different implications. Surely the believer has to at least decide which it is they believe.
Not at all. Goodness has only one meaning. To be good. What you're suggesting isn't good. It's a very much lower standard. One that would contradict the nature of God and the logical possibility of his existence.
(June 18, 2013 at 6:35 pm)Zarith Wrote: Does God's nature have goodness, or is goodness the property of being in God's nature? This gets us nowhere.
God doesn't 'have' goodness. God -is- good.
Goodness isn't a property of God. God -is- goodness. But God has other attributes as well. 'Creator of everything' is one example. So if the concepts 'God' and 'goodness' are equivalent, or share the same identity (the delicious ambiguity of the word 'is'), then to say that an action is morally good is to make some statement to the effect that this action had a role in the creation of the universe. Well, that's clearly absurd. So 'God' and 'goodness' must denote different concepts after all, which shouldn't really come as a big surprise to anybody, because that reflects the way in which we use them in everyday speech.
We don't say that numbers are divisible by 2 because they are even; they are even because they are divisible by 2. So the property 'evenness' is defined in terms of divisibility. So which is it here?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 19, 2013 at 4:28 am
Creator and goodness are inextricably linked. They are essentially the same thing. A first cause has to be fully potential. What is purely potential is also purely good. The creative spark wouldn't be a creative spark of there existed in it a destructive spark. Hence God = good.
Good is love : part of the same concept.
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