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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 23, 2013 at 6:58 pm
(June 23, 2013 at 5:47 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You claim bullshit before you know what we're talking about.
We're not talking about God or any god, we're taking about the possibility of any other reality existing where love didn't have to have a logical counterpart to make it viable. My claim is that this isn't possible. You are welcome to demonstrate otherwise.
I don't care to elaborate. Go use that thing between your ears. Was love nonexistent in your magical garden paradise?
Is today a better state of affairs than your magical garden paradise?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 23, 2013 at 7:48 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2013 at 7:55 pm by Mystical.)
(June 23, 2013 at 5:51 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Why do people put down dogs who attack people? Yes it's a natural reflex for a dog, and you might say it's what it's biologically programmed to do. In our analogy we had to assume the dog had the ability to fully control itself and make a moral choice.
I didn't make the dog to bite, that's just the reality of its evolutionary path. What I'm saying is why would god send the dog to hell for doing what it was made by god to do? You say without the choice to love rather than bite, there can be no love. What do you have to back up your premise? I'll admit I'm not totally understanding of the Christians' acceptance of a free will scenario, but I'd like to hear what you have to say because as you can see: I've concluded that its a bs scenario to begin with based on the origins of the belief itself.
fr0d0 Wrote:So Missy C is a mass murderer. Fate put a little girl, Missy Cs favourite victim in Missy Cs path. Missy C does as Missy C did before.
So you are saying that fate is at fault for putting the little girl into that place. Fate could have put her somewhere else and her life might play out reflecting justice for her actions.
Okay this is why I was confused about your definition of fate. I thought fate is comprable to predetermination; something I dont subscribe to. True to your defininition of fate that you then presented: Fate doesn't 'put' anyone anywhere. Natural biological forces and processes progress by the second and as part of that existence we interact with one another. I don't understand how fate could put her anywhere else than where she is?
fr0d0 Wrote:What religion does is reflect reality. There is no point in addressing a fantasy reality after all.
Your solution to the problem of evil is an unworkable fantasy. Or a fantasy where love and hate can't exist. I prefer Gods reality, this one, where love is an option, and not a life of brain death.
I'm here in reality living it and witnessing it fr0d0. I just don't see a need to address a fantasy reality anymore. Demons and angels; good and evil. I use evil as a general term for lack of a better one in my daily speech, but there is no true evil or sliding scale of evil in reality there's just humans and animals, molecules and forces of nature interacting with one another. What you see as reality (good/evil) does not reflect reality to me.
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 23, 2013 at 7:58 pm
(This post was last modified: June 23, 2013 at 7:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 23, 2013 at 5:47 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You claim bullshit before you know what we're talking about. You assume that others are as dull as -some- pretend to be. We all have our ticks. We aren't talking about a claim that you've made and failed to demonstrate...?
Quote:We're not talking about God or any god, we're taking about the possibility of any other reality existing where love didn't have to have a logical counterpart to make it viable. My claim is that this isn't possible. You are welcome to demonstrate otherwise.
Good, get to work on that claim. I think you should put just a little more effort into a burden shifting attempt than this. Meanwhile, bullshit.
Quote:I don't care to elaborate. Go use that thing between your ears.
Meanwhile bullshit.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 23, 2013 at 8:14 pm
fr0d0, just curious, do you think hate is possible in heaven? When you die, and if you do go to heaven, do you think hate is an emotion you're still capable of? I don't remember this too well but I think my version of heaven way back when was where sin was impossible. And hate is a sin according to the bible, do you subscribe to this version as well?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 23, 2013 at 8:26 pm
(June 23, 2013 at 5:51 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Why do people put down dogs who attack people? Yes it's a natural reflex for a dog, and you might say it's what it's biologically programmes to do. In our analogy we had to assume the dog had the ability to fully control itself and make a moral choice.
Why don't we slaughter every dog in the city when one attacks somebody?
We are not omnipotent, omniscient beings who have the ability to resolve the problem through any other method imaginable. If we were, killing the dog would be immoral if we believe it is immoral to kill without necessity.
Quote:Your solution to the problem of evil is an unworkable fantasy. Or a fantasy where love and hate can't exist. I prefer Gods reality, this one, where love is an option, and not a life of brain death.
God is all knowing and all capable until such attributes make his actions look needlessly cruel. Then, all of a sudden, God has so many limitations. Why do you constantly attempt to justify your god's use of violence by comparing his actions to humans who are supposed to be so far less righteous and capable and knowing?
A God who can't come up with a solution that doesn't involve mass-murder is a God who doesn't know everything. A God who won't come up with one is malicious. There is no exception.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 24, 2013 at 2:24 am
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2013 at 2:54 am by fr0d0.)
(June 23, 2013 at 6:58 pm)Zarith Wrote: (June 23, 2013 at 5:47 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You claim bullshit before you know what we're talking about.
We're not talking about God or any god, we're taking about the possibility of any other reality existing where love didn't have to have a logical counterpart to make it viable. My claim is that this isn't possible. You are welcome to demonstrate otherwise.
I don't care to elaborate. Go use that thing between your ears. Was love nonexistent in your magical garden paradise?
Is today a better state of affairs than your magical garden paradise?
Was the fantasy better than reality? Sure. It seems to be much like heaven. But God already created heavenly beings: angels. Humans are a higher creation (in the bible), created as we are with freedom to choose, and the knowledge/moral sense to know the difference between good and bad (as opposed to non human animals who supposedly act on instinct)
Missy C
God wouldn't send a dog to hell for doing what comes naturally, because the dog doesn't choose it. Unlike in our hypothetical story.
Humans have the choice and can love. They are different from dogs in that way. Nature still applies. Fate is nature. It's neither good nor bad. Evil is another word for bad, applied only to human action/the action of beings with the ability to choose between the two.
You're saying that fate should put the girl somewhere that would be just considering the girls actions to date. The girl would lead a charmed life/ one without reason to choose bad, because it would be so easy. Hence unreal/ without choice. This is how you're saying Gods reality should be, and I'm trying to explain how that's impossible.
In my reality there's hope. In yours there is none: Nature is neutral. Mine isn't a fantasy. It's very much as real as your reality. Belief is all that divides us.
@ Rhythm: the claim is substantiated and awaiting your rebuttal. Meanwhile: bullshit
@ pineapple
Is hate possible in heaven...
Well angels have chosen to defect? I guess that means they are no longer in heaven, so you would be correct?
@ Ryan
God is a logical God. That is a self evident summation. Logically you couldn't arrive at any other solution. Hence your objections fail.
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 24, 2013 at 3:10 am
Quote:@ pineapple
Is hate possible in heaven...
Well angels have chosen to defect? I guess that means they are no longer in heaven, so you would be correct?
So you are able to sin, but it would be equivalent to defecting and you have to leave heaven? Where do you go then, is it hell?
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 24, 2013 at 4:16 am
I guess it's sin. Yes, that would be hell.
(sorry for my vagueness. It's not a subject I've been that interested in)
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 24, 2013 at 2:13 pm
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2013 at 2:17 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(June 24, 2013 at 2:24 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Rhythm: the claim is substantiated and awaiting your rebuttal. Not by the mere act of your uttering it, at least put a little something into the pot Frodo. It gets tedious, calling you out on platitudes and empty claims. No rebuttal is required. Do your own work.
Quote:Meanwhile: bullshit
You're calling bullshit on my mentioning that I don't feel that you have substantiated your claim? Yeah...that's an argument you have a chance at winning 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: If you believe in the God of the Bible, why try to prove it logically?
June 24, 2013 at 2:59 pm
(This post was last modified: June 24, 2013 at 3:01 pm by Ryantology.)
(June 24, 2013 at 2:24 am)fr0d0 Wrote: @ Ryan
God is a logical God. That is a self evident summation. Logically you couldn't arrive at any other solution. Hence your objections fail.
I love how it's entirely acceptable for you to make baseless assertions while never missing the opportunity to point it out in others when you think you've discovered examples. I also like how you were unwilling to even attempt to dispute a single thing I actually said. Should I take that as a concession on every point, or would you like to actually try?
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