General argument for Islam.

[The Grand Nudger]

In our interactions..you've noticed that I've been strongly disputing the only tangible portion of what you call an argument, right?  As you've been explaining it...Islam doesn't seem to have any particularly exalted wisdom......and the quran certainly seems to be very much like many other stories which have nothing to do with the quran....but somehow (as-in, through metaphor -so sayeth you-..which is also a description of a metaphysical reality -so sayeth you-) manage to speak to the human condition in precisely the same way to precisely the same effect - and often enough which all agree in their conclusions and implications.  

-and, of course..that even if the claim of a unique revelation or book with exalted wisdom were true (in some alternate universe)...that still wouldn't prove anything about a god.

Are you a Tortoise and Hare-ist? A Jack and the Beanstalk-ist? Do woodlands animals organize marathons, and do giants own geese that lay golden eggs? These are the questions I find myself forced to ask.

[Mystic]

Rhythm, don't be hasty. I quote from Imam Jaffar:

The knowledge is the basis of every sublime state and the culmination of every high station. That is why the Holy Prophet said, 'It is the duty of every Muslim, man and woman, to seek the knowledge,' that is, the knowledge of precaution/guarding (taqwa) and certainty(in God and his signs). Imam 'Ali (‘a) said, “Seek the knowledge, though it be in China,” meaning the knowledge of gnosis of the self, in it is contained knowledge of the Lord.

 
The Holy Prophet said, 'Whoever knows his own self knows his Lord; moreover, you should acquire that knowledge without which no action is correct, and that is sincerity ... We seek refuge with Allah from knowledge which has no benefit', that is, from knowledge which is contrary to actions performed with sincerity.

[robvalue]

Whoops.

[pocaracas]

MK, that sounds a lot like Drich's A.S.K.... Ask Seek, Knock, and eventually god opens the door...

I still see only people telling others how to exploit their own mental shortcomings into deluding themselves even further.
I must say: it has worked wonderfully!
Doesn't mean that god exists for real... nor that those prophets and imams got their info from any god... just means they knew something about how human minds work.

[RobertE]

Everyone knows that God was a human being and Mo/Jesus was his second in command. Remember, Adam "heard", God walking in the Garden of Eden", yet he is supposed to be in the sky. At the end of the day, can't we just put God/Jesus and Mo as being those people who had superior intellect, who decided to go East from Egypt and not be ruled by the Pharaohs, create their new village and then they multiply. It doesn't take much to brainwash a few people, remember that even the most brightest of people have been brainwashed by certain leaders of American and Japanese cults without asking questions. This is my opinion in any case, just God/Jesus and Mo were intellectually superior to those around them and the illiterate ones bought whatever they said hook, line and sinker. Come on MK, even you must admit that the Qu'ran is simply a copy of a copy of something else that was written and Muslims claim it as the final book, the final truth, which appears to me as whatever happened in the Jewish text is a load of bollocks, therefore, whatever is in the Qu'ran is a load of bollocks too, yet it is claimed to be the final word of God.

[Mudhammam]

Rhythm, don't be hasty. I quote from Imam Jaffar:

The knowledge is the basis of every sublime state and the culmination of every high station. That is why the Holy Prophet said, 'It is the duty of every Muslim, man and woman, to seek the knowledge,' that is, the knowledge of precaution/guarding (taqwa) and certainty(in God and his signs). Imam 'Ali (‘a) said, “Seek the knowledge, though it be in China,” meaning the knowledge of gnosis of the self, in it is contained knowledge of the Lord.

 
The Holy Prophet said, 'Whoever knows his own self knows his Lord; moreover, you should acquire that knowledge without which no action is correct, and that is sincerity ... We seek refuge with Allah from knowledge which has no benefit', that is, from knowledge which is contrary to actions performed with sincerity.

"Whoever knows his own self knows his Lord"? Self-exalted much, Mo? Guess who said it a lot more concise, and without the self-righteous pretension? Thales. 1,000 years before Mo. He famously said, "Know thyself." It was also inscribed on the walls at the temple of Delphi, not because Apollo revealed mysteries to man, but because man is a creature who develops systems for ways on how to live, and people realized knowing one's self was a wise path if one seeks to understand the world and the others in it. How does one know thyself? By reading the Qur'an? By sitting in a corner thinking all day? Or by collaborating with other "selves" who also seek to understand the world?
 

---

Also, what is 'knowledge which is contrary to actions performed with sincerity'? Example?

[The Grand Nudger]

Rhythm, don't be hasty. I quote from Imam Jaffar:

The knowledge is the basis of every sublime state and the culmination of every high station. That is why the Holy Prophet said, 'It is the duty of every Muslim, man and woman, to seek the knowledge,' that is, the knowledge of precaution/guarding (taqwa) and certainty(in God and his signs). Imam 'Ali (‘a) said, “Seek the knowledge, though it be in China,” meaning the knowledge of gnosis of the self, in it is contained knowledge of the Lord.

 
The Holy Prophet said, 'Whoever knows his own self knows his Lord; moreover, you should acquire that knowledge without which no action is correct, and that is sincerity ... We seek refuge with Allah from knowledge which has no benefit', that is, from knowledge which is contrary to actions performed with sincerity.

Hasty to what?  I don't care what Imam Whomeveri has to say about anything -at all, I thought I was having a conversation with you.  If you'd like to lead a sermon, by all means, but I;m not interested.

I''m still waiting for some exalted wisdom, some plainly unique aspect of the storybook.  I don't see it.  This is part of your "argument for islam" - you need to make it happen.

-or not...I doubt that any of it actually matters to you, at this point. Your argument only exists as a script, not as an actual argument to be worked or assessed. It's all so -obvious....

...in any case, my every question from the last post stands - as you answered none, despite pretending to respond to anything I said. You may think that these are ridiculous questions to ask, rhetorical...but they aren't. I fail to see why you would not be a rabbit and harist, or a jack in the beanstalkist...if what you've been offering is the reason you are a muslim. If this, to you...is the reasoning behind islam being ture...then you shoudl have no problem accepting woodland marathon organizing committees and skyscraping beanstalks with geese that lay golden eggs. This is my honest opinion of both your belief, and what you've claimed to have reasoned from and too.

[Mystic]

Also, what is 'knowledge which is contrary to actions performed with sincerity'? Example?

It is when you know God, his Oneness, his Divine Names, the descent of his Name and the ascension towards him, are aware of the trial, aware of the reward of good, aware of God's rights and the morals, and aware of spiritual realities of the 7 heavens, 7 earth, the veils of light, the position of the Prophets, the connection companionship of the Imams that Guide by God's command, yet as the Quran states "but he (despite being given of God's Signs/guidance) sticks to the earth".

This knowledge is useless and would be a proof against you. It's the type where someone has it intellectually in his mind, understands, but his heart really disbelieves in it and doesn't have faith in it. This type of knowledge is actually not true knowledge, but a delusional type. It's affirmation with the mind, words, lip service, but the soul isn't convinced and has not verified it with sincerity.

This is not my explanation, but this is what the Imam meant, if you read the rest:

 

Knowledge is the basis of every sublime state and the culmination of every high station. That is why the Holy Prophet said, 'It is the duty of every Muslim, man and woman, to seek the knowledge,' that is, the knowledge of precaution (taqwa) and certainty. Imam 'Ali (‘a) said, “Seek the knowledge, though it be in China,” meaning the knowledge of gnosis of the self, in it is contained knowledge of the Lord.
 
The Holy Prophet said, 'Whoever knows his own self knows his Lord; moreover, you should acquire that knowledge without which no action is correct, and that is sincerity ... We seek refuge with Allah from knowledge which has no benefit', that is, from knowledge which is contrary to actions performed with sincerity.
 
Know that a small amount of the knowledge requires a great deal of action, because the knowledge of the Hour requires the person who has such knowledge to act accordingly during his entire life. ‘Isa (‘a) said, 'I saw a stone on which was written, "Turn me over", so I turned it over. Written on the other side was "Whoever does not act by what he knows will be doomed by seeking what he does not know, and his own knowledge will be turned against him." '
 
Allah revealed to David, 'The least that I shall do to someone with knowledge who does not act by his knowledge is worse than the seventy inner punishments which result in My removing from his heart the sweetness of My remembrance.' There is no way to Allah except via knowledge. And knowledge is the adornment of man in this world and the next, his driver to Paradise, and by means of it he attains Allah's contentment with him.
 
He who truly knows is the one in whom sound actions, pure supplications, truthfulness and precaution speak out; not his tongue, his debates, his comparisons, assertions or claims. In times other than these, those who sought knowledge were those who had intellect, piety, wisdom, modesty and caution; but nowadays we see that those who seek it do not have any of these qualities. The man of knowledge needs intellect, kindness, compassion, good counsel, forbearance, patience, contentment and generosity; while anyone wishing to learn needs a desire for knowledge, will, devotion (of his time and energy), piety, caution, memory and resolution 

[The Grand Nudger]

-and is any of that less true, or more true, for him having said it?  Is any of it less or more true whether a god exists or not?  Would you not believe that this were true if your holyman had not said these words? Further...further, say allah offered no refuge, you would still seek it - by whatever means, I assume?
 

 

[Mystic]

MK, that sounds a lot like Drich's A.S.K.... Ask Seek, Knock, and eventually god opens the door...

I still see only people telling others how to exploit their own mental shortcomings into deluding themselves even further.
I must say: it has worked wonderfully!
Doesn't mean that god exists for real... nor that those prophets and imams got their info from any god... just means they knew something about how human minds work.

My understanding is that we are all connected, and we just have to remember these truths which we always acknowledge in some form or another.  We believe in exalted nature of love, we believe in praise and value, we believe in ranks and that actions lower or raise our rank, all this the affair between the 7 heavens and the 7 earths, and to remember God and his Unity, and the place of meeting God, which his throne and chair that encompasses all things, is something we can see and remember. It takes vision. And also the hidden enemies and their spiritual attacks on us, from the uncleanness, and their touch is something we can witness as well. Then attack back with the divine sword of God, the sword of honor, which is truthfulness to ourselves and to God. Sure the exact number of 7 is something witnessed only by spiritual journey, but the descent of water/purity/mercy/blessings of God from the heavens is the nature of what have in our souls. "There is not thing but with us is it's treasures and we do not send down but in a known measurement". We can see this reality, "And in the (signs) in themselves, will they not see".

I know Atheists will not be convinced by this, but, you can't be telling me that this is circular logic. Is seeing circular logic?

From my point of view we just have to remember. As for the true path and guidance, I have to agree with Drich, if you seek the truth you fill find it, and Suratal Fatiha has that spirit of knocking on God's door. 

If you seek help from God's mercy, his goodness, his praise, instead of the lower desires and ignorance, and sought help from the divine pure forces in the soul, surely you will be guided, even if you are unaware of God to begin with. 

For it's the earthly nature we been created on, the humble nature, that truly raises on, although the fire with in us is important, the earth dust nature along with water is the foremost need to receive the light. 

God has made two purifiers, earth and water, these are two parables to the nature of the soul and the nature of the heavens and the earth. The fire of God is important, but it can lead us astray, if we don't observe the prerequisite of it. 

But it is a guidance as well:  "When he saw a fire, he said to his family: "Wait! Verily, I have seen a fire, perhaps I can bring you some burning brand therefrom, or find some guidance at the fire."

---

-and is any of that less true, or more true, for him having said it?  Is any of it less or more true whether a god exists or not?  Would you not believe that this were true if your holyman had not said these words? Further...further, say allah offered no refuge, you would still seek it - by whatever means, I assume?

From what I understand, it's the nature of this knowledge that makes this true. It's only true because God is true. Without this truth, there is corruption in the earth. "Say if there were there a god with god, then they (heaven and the earth) would be corrupted". It's due to the Oneness of God, the oneness of his beauty, the exalted nature of the origin of the highest, that we are reckoned with not acting according to this knowledge and just having in our mind, without teaching it to the soul.

Of course I believe in these words without knowing Imam Jaffar said these words. Misbahal Shariah has no chain, it's mursal book, but I believe in it due the wisdom in it.