(November 13, 2016 at 2:43 am)theologia Wrote:The problem with all this mover needs a mover stuff, is that it's solely intuitive based on what we think we know now. What was the universe like when it started, if it started, or whatever the circumstances were, we just don't know. There are no facts, only assumptions, because it's a big ole universe and it was a long time ago.(November 12, 2016 at 3:57 pm)wallym Wrote: The five ways stuff is dopey.
The answer is not God, it's "Who the fuck knows!?!?!" It was billions years ago. We have our small little snapshot of existence from our tiny little planet.
We don't know yet. We may never know. That's kind of to be expected.
However, using metaphysics which deals with things with beings, (and therefore outside of its scope are those which has no being, which are literally nothing), we can know whether there is God or not. So, I think, it is a matter of being open-minded or not.
So when you say "everything needs to be moved", I say "Maybe. Seems that way now on this planet. But that's a pretty small piece of the puzzle."
The big one for me that keeps my hubris in check when it comes to making claims of absolutes like you're doing, is relativity. Time is not a constant. I understand that this is true. But it's still counter-intuitive and unfathomable (to me).
So while you're saying things are proof of a first mover, I'm saying Who the hell knows? Who knows what other things are in the universe and what rules they follow. Who knows if the rules have been the same for a billion years. It's just flat unknowable.
And that's where God lives. Throughout human history, if something's unknown, God slides right in. And then people figure it out, and God slides right the fuck back out. It's happened enough, that we should be pretty suspect of that strategy by now.