Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?

[robvalue]

Yes I agree. A choice is truly free if its outcome cannot be predicted. Even by a "God". That is why it's at odds with precognition of any kind.

I mean, if God wants to entertain itself, why the hell would it create a load of stuff that it knows the outcome of? What fun is that?

It doesn't, at all. It's just obfuscation.

And thanks very much! I got plenty more where that came from


I'm not sure what you're saying here. If we're discussing hard determinism, as in everything could be predicted from the word go, then I don't see any kind of "free will" being possible, that means anything.

By "free will", I would mean that intelligent agents have a genuine choice of multiple actions, and they could actually choose any of them. If it can be predicted what the agent will do with complete accuracy, then I no longer see it as any kind of choice. It's just a sequence of causes and effects. All we have is the illusion of choice.

If you define "choice"/"free will" so that it covers no real choice at all, then it's compatible, but meaningless IMO.

I agree completely with this, and I just want to add, even if the universe isn't superdeterministic and there is true randomness, I don't think free will exists in that case either. You have no control over true randomness the same way one has no control over something already determined. But it isn't 'either you're determined or driven by randomness' because the brain isn't quantum and follows cause and effect. Iow the brain is deterministic.

I've met definitions of free will where they've restricted free will to merely acting according to ones intentions with no restrictions from an outside force, in this case outside force being an agent; agent being another person. I don't agree with that definition because our will is clearly affected and determined by literally everything else, not just agents but by how the universe behaves and what we are. Why exclude that fact? Another thing is regarding acting out of your intention with no agent holding a gun to your head, what your intention is isn't your choice nor is they way you decide to approach your intention your choice, it's all determined and that renders that definition of free will pretty much useless. Our will is free when our intention and the way we act according to our intention isn't random nor determined an I don't see that being the case. Right now the only free wills we have are definitions of it that don't take into account things that play a quite big role. Just thought I'd bring this up, since I've seen it discussed.

I agree. It seems there is no evidence to suggest anything other than simple randomness being at the heart of any "choices". So it's really just flowery language to suggest that a living thing, as a whole, is making a "choice". What we really have is our conscious mind telling us stories about our choices, that we don't have any proper control over. We're a slave to our surroundings, our past, and randomness, so it would seem.

Experiments already suggest we don't "make" choices at the time that we think they do, they can be made far earlier without us realizing it.

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I don't think it's voluntarily. It's indoctrinated into them, on the whole. They can't simply discard it. It takes a huge feat of bravery to challenge the beliefs, and eventually work through them to the point where they can be discounted.

If your talking about belief, where your ordered to kill people in the Gods name, that's fairly easy, especially if your promised heaven if you die. You take a part in a successful conquest - you will be rewarded. You die- rewarded. That's easy to believe in.

But, if we are talking about belief, where you must strive to be more selfless, even if your fed an idea of hell for refusing it, it sounds f hard, because its valuable, even if indoctrination is in the mix.

Atheism is "soft" compared to the idea of "selfless or burn".

It's no so much "selfless or burn" as "follow this massive arbitrary list of rules or burn". Reducing religious doctrine to being selfless is oversimplifying in most cases.

But either way, yes I agree. Having the mental burden of a possible "hell" hanging over you must be absolutely horrible. I feel very sorry for anyone who believes such a thing is real. It isn't, obviously, but things are as real as they seem, to each person. I wish I could save people from this horrific mental torture.

So indeed, I am massively unburdened in that regard. My worries are only for this life, and not beyond it. Knowing that when I die I am done and dusted is comforting to me. Some people might find that odd I suppose. For me it's just facing reality. There's nothing to be scared of.

Atheists don't necessarily disbelieve in hell, although probably the vast majority do. I've met at least one who still believes in it, at least enough to be upset about it.