Admitting You're a Sinner

[vulcanlogician]

My goal in replying was not to convince you of the Christian position, it was so you understand it better. A discussion requires understanding the other side.

Agreed. My goal is to understand the Christian position as you present it, but also to see how it fares against objections. So let's try again.

On the doctrine of sin, there will be no common ground. IMO, there is no such thing as sin in a naturalistic worldview. Only subjective morality linked to harm and social contract. The Christian worldview anchors morality with God. These philosophies are worlds apart. 

Yes.

No, teaching morality is not the core message of Christ.

But since you are a servant of Christ, isn't your service to him (ie carrying out of his moral commandments) an important facet of your relationship with him? 

I've read the Gospels. I've even been inspired by them. Sure there is a lot of going on about fulfilled prophesies (I breeze over those parts), and miracles (which I understand allegorically). Medical insights: epilepsy is contagious and can make livestock suicidal. Lots of stuff that I will never believe or take seriously.

But you MUST admit that there is also a profound message of peace, pacifism, and brotherly love in there. You're letting schmucks like Gandhi get in on all the action while you guys petition Caesar about marriage laws. The moral teaching is powerful. I admire anyone who tries to live up to it. 

Can we at least agree that there are powerful moral teachings in the Gospels? Please tell me that I don't have to twist a Christian's arm to get him to agree with that.

Regarding "blood ritual" The animal sacrifice did not take away sin (see Hebrews 10 - especially verse 4). 

Then why do so many Christians go on about Jesus being the sacrificial lamb whose blood needed to be spilled to provide salvation? I wasn't talking about the OT when I mentioned blood sacrifice. I was talking about the NT.

Edit: after reading Hebrews 10 I realize you were talking about the NT as well.

Can I just ask some questions: Why all the emphasis on pacifism and morality if belief is all that is required? Why even give moral imperatives if good works will freely flow from one who believes? Can you honestly say that Christians on average are more or less moral than atheists? If not, then what evidence is there that faith leads to moral action?