(February 20, 2018 at 9:31 am)polymath257 Wrote:(February 20, 2018 at 9:19 am)SteveII Wrote: Okay, let's back up to your initial position and try another tack. I think the best sentence that sums up your position is: " So, to the best I can tell, the idea that the universe is temporally infinite is consistent with a B theory of time and with some models of cosmology. So, ultimately, it doesn't appear that the case that you can't have an actual infinite has been made."
Under standard cosmology models, the B Theory of time has a beginning (at the time of the Bib Bang). An event creates a spacetime manifold. That at least make sense because we have a beginning and we are posit a potential infinite off into the future. By assuming an eternal universe model is correct, you assumed an eternal manifold and then...an actual infinite is possible.
After reading about the cosmology model you mentioned (CCC-Penrose). I noticed from your wiki link that "Penrose's basic construction[5] is to connect a countable sequence of open Friedmann–Lemaître–Robertson–Walker metric (FLRW) spacetimes, each representing a big bang followed by an infinite future expansion." This does not seem to be using the B Theory of time's manifold and simply claiming it never had a beginning (therefore an actual infinite). The theory proposes a "countable sequence" of different spacetime manifolds. Each manifold exists in sequence and therefore was never part of one big spacetime that existed as one eternal block.
So, it would seem that proposing the two theories together does not get you to even a model of an actual infinite and brings the question right back to, metaphysically speaking, can we have an actual infinite of past events? Since you can't get an eternal spacetime block out of any theory, you must have successive states of affairs. If you have successive states of affairs, they cannot be past infinite, because you will never get to our current state of affairs because an infinite number of prior states of affairs would have to happen.
There are a few misunderstandings here. First, and trivially, events don't create spacetimes. Spacetimes are made out of events.
I think that is wrong. The standard model most ascribe to has a change in the singularity that resulted in the spacetime manifold we experience now.
Quote:Second, the sequence of spacetimes in the Penrose model are each internal to the previous. Again, there is no beginning to the sequence and the 'overall' manifold is not one of the spacetimes, but a sort of multiverse with time going infinitely into the past.
And, yes, there was an infinite sequence into the past in this model, necessarily. So you are (again) wrong about the difficulty of an infinite past. And yes, an infinite number of prior states happened. So?
Where is the contradiction to an infinite number of prior states having happened? If at each time, that is always the case, there is no contradiction.
To get around the problem I brought up, all of those sequential spacetime manifolds (see where I quoted) have to already exist. That does not seem to be part of the theory. Please address this problem specifically. Most of your statements just seem to be assertions and not part of the model.