RE: Open discussion of the Christian Why We're Here thread
May 7, 2018 at 1:59 pm
(This post was last modified: May 7, 2018 at 2:09 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(May 7, 2018 at 1:29 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:(May 7, 2018 at 12:59 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I changed my username because another member was calling on others to physically harm me. Everyone knows this. I guess it is too much to ask that people stop referring to me by name and respect the concerns I have for the safety of me and my family.
Wow, I did not know this. I'm sorry, I'm one of the people who occasionally calls you by your name.
(May 7, 2018 at 1:25 pm)Hammy Wrote: No I'm saying it's not a generalization if the generalization is correct. Just as it's not a generalization to say that all squares have four sides or generalization to say that all Nazis who followed Hitler all followed Hitler.
Of course, nowhere did I suggest that all theists are anything--besides irrational in their theism--but the point is that what I said wasn't judgmental or patronizing because what he actually quoted I was right about, as Mathilda confirmed (all I was doing is saying what I think Mathilda was trying to say and it turns out it really was what she was trying to say)... but what he said was judgmental and patronizing because he literally spoke of atheists being ignorant of the truth and yet his beliefs about atheism being wrong have no basis. And what's more: he went much further than that... he said that we didn't even want hope, that we weren't even seeking the truth in other words--the truth from his perspective i.e. Christianity--and... ironically he flat out admitted (albeit implicitly but regardless of what he said it was an admission) that he is not interested in furthering knowledge for its own sake... a position which is guaranteed to lead to confirmation bias... so, ironically, is an example of him shutting his own eyes to truth (or at least the possibility of being wrong. If I'm wrong about atheism and God really does exist... at least I seek knowledge for its own sake so I have no reason to shut my eyes to anything that supports theism. Because I don't seek knowledge merely to further atheism... I seek knowledge to seek knowledge).
I don't think many of the generalizations made here about theists is correct.
What generalizations?
(May 7, 2018 at 1:42 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:(May 7, 2018 at 1:24 pm)Joods Wrote: bold mine.
Oh please. Do tell me what sort of rational thought, a 4 or 5 year old sitting in a children's church being taught how beautiful the story of Noah's ark is, could possibly have?
You know as well as I do that the vast majority of believers, do so because their parents taught them about god and how he was good and great. So they grew up thinking that god was real. And then they did it to their children and their children did it to their children ad nauseum. How else do you think religion has survived as long as it has? Indoctrination yes. Rational thought? Hell no. If theists had any sort of rational thought, they wouldn't be theists in the first place.
You are being completely disingenuous when you say otherwise.
I would beg to differ. There are plenty of people who come to believe in and have faith in God; later in life. And many of them are quite intelligent, and do cite rational reasons for their belief that Christianity is true. I would also point out that learning something when you are young, does not preclude a greater understanding and foundation for that belief later. So I would say that you are just flat out wrong. And I don't think that you have much to support the statements you make.
I think the clear context is that she's [Joods is] saying that if theists had any sort of rational thought about their theism then they wouldn't be theists in the first place. I don't think she's saying that all theists are irrational all 'round and if they were rational in any way about anything at all they wouldn't be theists (she's not calling all theists lunatics).
Of course it's not a generalization to say that all theists are irrational in their theism any more than it is to say all Trumptards are irrational in their Trumptardism or all [insert believer in something here] are irrational to believe in [insert belief here].
To be clear: If I thought there was even ONE theist who was rational in their theism then I'd BE a theist. Because it would mean that at least one theist had figured out logically sound arguments for, or found accurate empirical evidence that, a supernatural being really did create the universe so why on earth would I still be an atheist?
And likewise, if I thought that even ONE person was rational in their support of Trump... I'd support Trump. But obviously there isn't a single rational reason for supporting Trump because any possible reason is only going to be completely outweighed by how incredibly immoral and unfit for staying away from prison he is, let alone how unfit for president he is. Likewise, there obviously isn't a single rational reason for believing in fairy tales... if there was they wouldn't be fairy tales (and yes I obviously don't think that's a strawman of theism. If I did, I'd be a theist. Of course theists think that's a strawman because they by definition see their own theism as far more rational than belief in fairy tales whereas to atheists like me it isn't any more rational at all and it's a completely fair comparison).
