Question about meaning and perception of reality from a theist.

[reverendjeremiah]

Can life have meaning w/o God?

Maybe. It would be a personal and temporary meaning, but a meaning none the less. There would be no universal meaning.

I mean I understand how we could perceive it to be have meaninb w/o God, but that perception is just illusory isn't it?

"God" does not fix the problem of meaning. If a God exists then it still does nothing to fix the problem as many contradicting religions exist. Many contradicting governing models exist. Many contradicting philosophies exist. If a God exist, and a God is supposed to clear up said "illusory meanings", then why does so much confusion continue in this world...and dont you dare say "because of the devil", because this does nothing to change the fact that this all powerful god ALLOWS such an illusion to exist...."God" does nothing to fix the human condition of the absurd.

Without God aren't life and death ultimately meaningless?

My life is not meaningless to me, and I would see that regardless of wether a God or a million gods or no gods existed. It doesnt effect the opinion. What you are asking is an OPINION. "Meaning" is an opinion. So if you suddenly quit believing in god you would become a mass murderer? My life is personally meaningful to ME. Damned be to you or anyone elses opinion on it. Is that not enough that even though I realize there is no inherent purpose in life that I can still consider my own life precious for the sake of my own life?

As far as I can understand EITHER life has real meaning and there must be something real which we call "God" or "meaning" OR any "meaning" in life is illusory and people choose to believe in the illusion of God to give their life meaning.

In other words, your OPINION is that life is meaningless without your God telling you what to do. If you so desperately need that crutch to give you meaning then continue to cling to it. You have comited intellectual suicide. "I refuse to accept that I can have my own personal meaning in life. Therefore I will kill my will and allow someone elses meaning to be opposed upon me." I understand. Life is difficult and decisions are hard. Its easy to let someone else take over and tell you right from wrong.

Believing that meaning is real but that "God" is illusory doesn't make any sense.

Only to you. Why? Because you have chosen to give up and let someone else call all of the shots. You have killed your power to be and allowed authority of another over your life. You are week and cannot cope with reality, therefore you have given your life over to your "Lord and savior Jesus Christ". Even if he exists, it does not change that fact that meaning is merely an opinion. I follow my opinions, and I am very aware that it is merely an opinion. You, on the other hand, allow some other persons (God) opinion to control you.

This of course is assuming that your god actually exists in reality. If your God DOESNT exist in reality, then you are following the opinions of a dusty old book written thousands of years ago.

It's exactly the same belief. It would just be another unverifiable belief for which the word "God" has been replaced with the word "meaning".

Excuse me? My "meaning" is not anywhere near the definition of a "god". Please dont mix up definitions if you wish to be taken seriously.

If someone could explain how life has real meaning without "God" I am all ears. Honestly I'm not trying to get into an argument I just want to hear the rationalization.

Your problem is that you are putting all meaning into this "god" fellow.

When you have sex, what is the MEANING behind it for you? God? Be honest. do you have sex because god made you to have or want sex? Or do you have sex because you like to feel good? Things can have temporary and personal meaning in the moment. Suggesting that some phantasmal "grand meaning" exist is not only tedious, but impossible for the human mind to attain regardless of wether a "god" exists or not.

Now you have placed all of your meaning into this eternal tyrant wether he exists or not. And he very much is a tyrant now since you have placed all of the meaning of your life upon him. He is the end all be all of everything you do, hope and dream now. He is the tyrant of your life. You live for him willingly. You have killed your will for His sake. You are no longer your own person, but now live your life according to the will of another.

If you believe it can't and it doesn't that's fine, it's just a difference of opinion. I AM NOT ATTACKING ANYONE's BELIEFS.

But if a universal meaning existed then beliefs would not be necesary. Cant you see that? If a universal meaning existed such as what you try to suggest, then it would be obvious like gravity is obvious. It would be obvious like "this red apple is red" obvious.

Furthermore, since all of our understanding of reality is based upon our perceptions, isn't the belief in the validity of human "perception" exactly the same as a belief in "God"? They are both ultimately beliefs in the unverifiable.

Which god? What god? How many of them exist? Why not a goddess? Do you mean Thor? What is the criteria for something to be "God". Why must such a being existing conclude that I give over my will and my cherished ability to find my own personal meaning over to it in favor of living ITS meaning for me? Why create me as an individual then demand every moment of my life be subordinate to its whim. If an all powerful god exists, then it is already in control of everything, therefore the chaos of multiple religions and governments is what it intends for us to live in and form our own meanings with..which means me being an atheist is EXACTLY what your god wanted and therefore my meaning is what I chose it to be WITH your god still existing.

Yes, atheists can have personal meaning with or without your god.