(January 6, 2012 at 3:50 pm)Shell B Wrote: Only in my opinion for me to identify it as real, it has to be observed by myself or by a trustworthy source who conveys it to me. However, all that is real does not fall under my conscious observation nor does it require my observation to be real.
I like the thought style - objective reality amazes me, the idea that something can exist without me knowing it is what drives me to explore, childish I know
(January 6, 2012 at 3:50 pm)Shell B Wrote: Yes, for the simple fact that it exists, not because someone believes it exists.
Alright cool, I'm going to re-post Ack's argument just so I don't have to keep flipping back pages.
Quote:1)All of reality is experienced through consciousness.
2)THEREFORE: If you believe in reality you must believe consciousness is real.
3)Things that are real must exist apart from our observation of or ideas about what they are.
4)THEREFORE: If consciousness is real it must exist apart from sciences observation of or ideas about it.
5)The only things science believes exists apart from it's observation or ideas about are universal constants.
6)THEREFORE: If consciousness is real science believes it is a universal constant.
7)Universal constants are believed to be responsible for the creaton of the universe and everything within it.
8)THEREFORE: if consciousness is real it is responsible for the creation of the universe and everything within it.
9)If consciousness is responsible for the creation of the universe and everything within it, it could be called "God"
10)THEREFORE: If you believe in reality you must necessarily believe in "God".
So, setting aside his 'must's and other objective claims - let's start fresh. We've now established parts one and two. We experience reality through the use of our consciousness and our conscience exists therefore it is real.
To address number three I will do my best, but I'm not sure if I can fully support the claim. One must support the idea of objectivism to firstly believe this claim is true. In order for things to exist outside of our consciousness they are defined to be real, this can be reversed and said as: things that are defined as being real exist outside of our conscience. From this we can then say that our observations and ideas are comprised within our consciousness - thus within ourselves and they do not effect the real existence of things around us. Finally, we can restate number three: Things that are real exist apart from our observation of or our ideas about what they are.
Let's see how flawed this statement of support and explanation is
Brevity is the soul of wit.