Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: June 1, 2024, 9:50 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 3 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Non-existence
#70
RE: Non-existence
(August 10, 2009 at 9:08 pm)Jon Paul Wrote:
(August 10, 2009 at 8:57 pm)LukeMC Wrote: No. Solipsism states that the mind exists. In our minds, we experience a universe. One way or another, the universe is there. If it is inside our minds then our minds fabricated the entire universe and all of its wonder and complexities, then forgot about doing this and began experiencing the universe in 1st person as an agent of it. If it is outside of our minds, we are agents of it and can learn to know it- even if without certainty. In both cases, we are only sure of the mind. In the former case, there is an immense amount of complexity assumed.
No. Solipsism solely states that the mind exists. It does not state anything else. It is the most reduced ontology, because it does not state that reality exists, and positing the existence of reality is more complex than not doing so, but the mind exists in either case and is unescapable.


Where are you losing me? Did I claim that solipsism makes other statements?

Jon Paul Wrote:That solipsism does not seem to be feasible or likely given the knowledge we derive from sense-data about the universe, does nothing to say anything about the amount of complexity it proposes. For that sense-data and those intuitions about the world would exist even if solipsism was false, and reality existed. The difference would be that on top of the sense-data in your conscious mind, everything that sense-data records would be actually existing outside your mind, ON TOP of your conscious mind, which is far more complex.

What you are talking about is the absurdity and counter-intuitiveness of solipsism of course. But that is not a rational ground for rejecting it, nor for calling it complex. It posites only 1 ontological entity and reality: your conscious mind. Realism and the belief in other minds posites the existence of a 100 billion ontological entities alone in the number of conscious minds we know to have existed; and many more in the number of unconscious entities that are real.

My bolding.
And within that mind exists the thoughts and feelings of the possessor, as well as the experiences with the billions of other would-be ontologically independent minds and the rest of the stuff that comes with it. A mind capable of inventing and maintaining this is far more complex as an entity than an objective universe full of beings. I think you stress far too much importance on existence as a quality. I don't think it is the holy grail of complexity. I think it far more simple that a trillion beings exist in one universe than one being -which spontanesouly and unexplainably poofed into existence with the processing power to create a vast and complex universe in which would-be ontologically independent beings exist and live out their lives as if the universe were objective and outside the mind- exists. It's all balony. Much simpler to have a universe. In the same way no god is less complex than an all-powerful, super-complex god. This being with the mind is basically as stupidly complex as a god, now that I think about it. It is far more complex than the universe, and the process by which it came into existence is surely a mystery.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Non-existence - by dagda - July 31, 2009 at 11:07 am
RE: Non-existence - by Giff - July 31, 2009 at 11:19 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - July 31, 2009 at 2:00 pm
RE: Non-existence - by binny - July 31, 2009 at 4:43 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - July 31, 2009 at 5:21 pm
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 1, 2009 at 5:28 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 1, 2009 at 2:17 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Pippy - August 2, 2009 at 1:32 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 2, 2009 at 3:42 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 2, 2009 at 3:38 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 3, 2009 at 1:11 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 5, 2009 at 7:41 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 5, 2009 at 7:52 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 2, 2009 at 5:42 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Pippy - August 3, 2009 at 4:56 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 3, 2009 at 10:58 am
RE: Non-existence - by Pippy - August 3, 2009 at 9:20 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 3, 2009 at 9:39 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Pippy - August 4, 2009 at 7:33 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 5, 2009 at 2:20 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 5, 2009 at 2:41 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 6, 2009 at 3:33 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 3:44 am
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 6, 2009 at 6:23 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 7:12 am
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 6, 2009 at 7:31 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 8:16 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 7, 2009 at 10:09 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 7, 2009 at 5:30 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 8, 2009 at 10:11 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 6, 2009 at 2:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 4:09 pm
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 6:47 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 11:50 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 2:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 3:35 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 4:10 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 5:04 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 5:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 5:23 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 5:34 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 5:51 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 5:54 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 6, 2009 at 3:13 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 7, 2009 at 8:29 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 8, 2009 at 2:45 am
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 8, 2009 at 9:25 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 8, 2009 at 8:10 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 8, 2009 at 9:32 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 8, 2009 at 10:00 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 8, 2009 at 9:54 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 8, 2009 at 10:00 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 9, 2009 at 11:36 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 10, 2009 at 5:37 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 5:59 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 6:42 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 7:49 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 8:35 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 8:46 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 8:57 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 9:08 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 9:34 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 10:31 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 8:22 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 12:08 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 10, 2009 at 7:16 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 11, 2009 at 3:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 3:25 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 4:09 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 8, 2009 at 10:38 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 8, 2009 at 10:56 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Dotard - August 9, 2009 at 9:25 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 9, 2009 at 11:39 am
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 9, 2009 at 4:27 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 12:19 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 12:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 2:30 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 2:32 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 2:34 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 2:53 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 11, 2009 at 3:27 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 3:38 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 3:40 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 11, 2009 at 4:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 4:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 4:55 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 5:09 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 6:07 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 11, 2009 at 5:39 pm
RE: Non-existence - by omjag86 - August 11, 2009 at 3:39 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 4:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 11, 2009 at 5:51 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 6:01 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 6:18 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 6:27 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 1:02 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 2:49 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 4:08 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 6:00 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 4:01 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 4:27 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 4:37 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 4:53 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 5:16 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 5:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 5:35 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 5:56 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 13, 2009 at 1:57 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 7:25 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 8:07 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 8:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 8:32 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 11:51 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 13, 2009 at 12:17 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 6:53 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 7:32 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 4:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 8:14 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 8:49 pm
RE: Non-existence - by theVOID - August 13, 2009 at 12:40 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 13, 2009 at 11:36 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 13, 2009 at 1:37 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 13, 2009 at 1:45 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 13, 2009 at 5:07 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 13, 2009 at 5:26 pm
RE: Non-existence - by theVOID - August 13, 2009 at 5:21 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 13, 2009 at 5:33 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 14, 2009 at 4:22 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 14, 2009 at 12:40 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 14, 2009 at 4:10 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 14, 2009 at 2:34 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 14, 2009 at 6:05 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 15, 2009 at 5:18 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 15, 2009 at 9:51 am
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 22, 2009 at 9:24 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 23, 2009 at 7:02 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 20, 2009 at 7:06 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 20, 2009 at 7:12 am
RE: Non-existence - by Tiberius - August 20, 2009 at 10:59 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 21, 2009 at 9:10 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 20, 2009 at 12:47 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Tiberius - August 20, 2009 at 12:53 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 20, 2009 at 12:58 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Tiberius - August 21, 2009 at 9:19 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 21, 2009 at 3:10 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 22, 2009 at 3:09 pm
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 23, 2009 at 4:27 am
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 23, 2009 at 6:47 am
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 23, 2009 at 4:22 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 23, 2009 at 5:06 pm
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 30, 2009 at 6:05 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 30, 2009 at 7:34 am
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - September 4, 2009 at 5:56 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - September 9, 2009 at 4:53 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - September 9, 2009 at 6:25 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Abiogenesis ("Chemical Evolution"): Did Life come from Non-Life by Pure Chance. Nishant Xavier 55 3182 August 6, 2023 at 5:19 pm
Last Post: Thumpalumpacus
  British Non-Catholic Historian on Historical Longevity of the Roman Catholic Church. Nishant Xavier 36 1958 August 6, 2023 at 4:48 pm
Last Post: LinuxGal
  Do atheists believe in the existence of friendship? KerimF 191 11055 June 9, 2023 at 3:32 pm
Last Post: Mister Agenda
  What is the worst religion in existence? Hi600 89 6696 May 6, 2023 at 12:55 pm
Last Post: BrianSoddingBoru4
  Atheism and the existence of peanut butter R00tKiT 721 53095 November 15, 2022 at 9:47 pm
Last Post: Jackalope
  A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ? R00tKiT 225 17297 April 17, 2022 at 2:11 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Atheists: I have tips of advice why you are a hated non religious dogmatic group inUS Rinni92 13 2925 August 5, 2020 at 3:43 pm
Last Post: Sal
Information The Best Logique Evidence of God Existence Nogba 225 25555 August 2, 2019 at 11:44 am
Last Post: comet
  Atheists being asked about the existence of Jesus Der/die AtheistIn 154 17965 January 24, 2019 at 1:30 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Arguments against existence of God. Mystic 336 80913 December 7, 2018 at 1:03 pm
Last Post: Mister Agenda



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)