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Non-existence
RE: Non-existence
(August 12, 2009 at 11:51 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: There's no evidence of consciousness seperate to the evidenced fact that it is effected when the brain is, therefore that it has a relationship to the brain. There's no reason to believe it's anything furhter than the workings of the brain. Like I said, I have self-evidence that I'm conscious, but not that consciousness is an external property. And there's evidence that it is effected when the brain is (if I get knocked unconscious), so once again, there's no reason to believe that it's anything more than the workings of the brain, because there's no evidence to anything further...or that it exists at all as a phenonmenon in and of itself that can exist without the brain.
So consciousness of the brains states depends upon the brains states. I am clearly aware of that. That in no way, proves out of either general principles or observational knowledge, that the existence of a brain causally necessitates the existence of conscious experience. The only reason to think that it does is that I am myself conscious of my brains states, and then I am appealing to my own knowledge of my own conscious experience of my brains states, a knowledge I emphatically do not have of other brains. It is both a) externally unverifiable, and b) unnecessary to explain the brain states and behaviour of the human being, and c) unwarranted by general principles or specific observational knowledge, and d) unwarranted due to the lack of knowledge about the internal conscious experience or lack thereof of another brain, the very standard for the knowledge I have of my own conscious experience which I use to justify the idea that I have consciousness, to postulate that there is a necessary causative link between brain states and consciousness and that followingly other brains have conscious experience like I do, just because I do. From a scientific point of view, it is certainly not a valid claim.
(August 12, 2009 at 11:51 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Solipsim fails then, because solipsism requires for there to be no other minds other than one's own...and since p-zeds are incoherent, others are likely to have minds so solipsism is likely to be bullshit.
No, because the reason you believe p-zeds is incoherent, is that it acknowledges the existence of the brain and of other peoples brains, yet does not affirm consciousness in other people. You cannot reject solipsism on the grounds of the postulated incoherence of that view, since that is emphatically not the view of solipsism; solipsism does not acknowledge the existence of other peoples brain, nor even any brain at all (since that would be an independent reality outside of the conscious experience of sense-data) which you say is the logical requirement for acknowledging the existence of other minds, and so, according to that view, it would actually be irrational for solipsism to accept the existence of other consciousnesses (since you posite the premise for doing so to be the brain), or any conscious experience at all, besides that which self-evidentially and undeniably exists (your own).
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
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Messages In This Thread
Non-existence - by dagda - July 31, 2009 at 11:07 am
RE: Non-existence - by Giff - July 31, 2009 at 11:19 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - July 31, 2009 at 2:00 pm
RE: Non-existence - by binny - July 31, 2009 at 4:43 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - July 31, 2009 at 5:21 pm
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 1, 2009 at 5:28 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 1, 2009 at 2:17 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Pippy - August 2, 2009 at 1:32 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 2, 2009 at 3:42 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 2, 2009 at 3:38 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 3, 2009 at 1:11 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 5, 2009 at 7:41 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 5, 2009 at 7:52 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 2, 2009 at 5:42 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Pippy - August 3, 2009 at 4:56 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 3, 2009 at 10:58 am
RE: Non-existence - by Pippy - August 3, 2009 at 9:20 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 3, 2009 at 9:39 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Pippy - August 4, 2009 at 7:33 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 5, 2009 at 2:20 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 5, 2009 at 2:41 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 6, 2009 at 3:33 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 3:44 am
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 6, 2009 at 6:23 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 7:12 am
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 6, 2009 at 7:31 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 8:16 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 7, 2009 at 10:09 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 7, 2009 at 5:30 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 8, 2009 at 10:11 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 6, 2009 at 2:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 6, 2009 at 4:09 pm
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 6:47 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 11:50 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 2:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 3:35 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 4:10 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 5:04 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 5:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 5:23 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 5:34 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 10, 2009 at 5:51 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 5:54 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 6, 2009 at 3:13 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 7, 2009 at 8:29 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 8, 2009 at 2:45 am
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 8, 2009 at 9:25 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 8, 2009 at 8:10 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 8, 2009 at 9:32 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 8, 2009 at 10:00 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 8, 2009 at 9:54 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 8, 2009 at 10:00 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 9, 2009 at 11:36 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 10, 2009 at 5:37 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 5:59 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 6:42 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 7:49 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 8:35 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 8:46 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 8:57 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 9:08 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 9:34 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 10, 2009 at 10:31 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 8:22 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 12:08 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 10, 2009 at 7:16 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 11, 2009 at 3:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 3:25 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 4:09 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 8, 2009 at 10:38 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 8, 2009 at 10:56 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Dotard - August 9, 2009 at 9:25 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 9, 2009 at 11:39 am
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - August 9, 2009 at 4:27 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 10, 2009 at 12:19 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 12:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 2:30 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 2:32 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 2:34 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 2:53 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 11, 2009 at 3:27 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 3:38 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 3:40 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 11, 2009 at 4:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 4:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 4:55 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 5:09 pm
RE: Non-existence - by LukeMC - August 11, 2009 at 6:07 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 11, 2009 at 5:39 pm
RE: Non-existence - by omjag86 - August 11, 2009 at 3:39 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 4:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 11, 2009 at 5:51 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 6:01 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 6:18 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 6:27 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 1:02 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 2:49 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 4:08 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 6:00 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 4:01 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 4:27 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 4:37 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 4:53 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 5:16 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 5:28 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 5:35 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 5:56 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 13, 2009 at 1:57 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 7:25 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 8:07 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 8:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 12, 2009 at 8:32 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 12, 2009 at 11:51 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 13, 2009 at 12:17 am
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 6:53 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 7:32 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 12, 2009 at 4:15 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 11, 2009 at 8:14 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 11, 2009 at 8:49 pm
RE: Non-existence - by theVOID - August 13, 2009 at 12:40 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 13, 2009 at 11:36 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 13, 2009 at 1:37 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 13, 2009 at 1:45 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Rhizomorph13 - August 13, 2009 at 5:07 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 13, 2009 at 5:26 pm
RE: Non-existence - by theVOID - August 13, 2009 at 5:21 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 13, 2009 at 5:33 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 14, 2009 at 4:22 am
RE: Non-existence - by Jon Paul - August 14, 2009 at 12:40 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 14, 2009 at 4:10 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 14, 2009 at 2:34 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 14, 2009 at 6:05 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 15, 2009 at 5:18 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 15, 2009 at 9:51 am
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 22, 2009 at 9:24 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 23, 2009 at 7:02 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 20, 2009 at 7:06 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 20, 2009 at 7:12 am
RE: Non-existence - by Tiberius - August 20, 2009 at 10:59 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 21, 2009 at 9:10 am
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 20, 2009 at 12:47 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Tiberius - August 20, 2009 at 12:53 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Edwardo Piet - August 20, 2009 at 12:58 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Tiberius - August 21, 2009 at 9:19 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 21, 2009 at 3:10 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 22, 2009 at 3:09 pm
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 23, 2009 at 4:27 am
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 23, 2009 at 6:47 am
RE: Non-existence - by Violet - August 23, 2009 at 4:22 pm
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 23, 2009 at 5:06 pm
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - August 30, 2009 at 6:05 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - August 30, 2009 at 7:34 am
RE: Non-existence - by Ryft - September 4, 2009 at 5:56 am
RE: Non-existence - by dagda - September 9, 2009 at 4:53 am
RE: Non-existence - by Kyuuketsuki - September 9, 2009 at 6:25 am

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