RE: For People Who Think There Was No Historical Jesus
March 30, 2013 at 2:50 pm
(This post was last modified: March 30, 2013 at 2:53 pm by Undeceived.)
(March 30, 2013 at 5:42 am)Confused Ape Wrote: I've invented a conspiracy theory about why Justin Martyr never mentioned Paul.
Marcion rejected the Old Testament, which is why he was so selective in his canon. He even went to far as to cut out Paul's Old Testament quotes. Your conspiracy theory would involve Marcion's canon being the original and Greeks adding Jewish verses after the fact. This is from Christians who didn't even want to be seen using the same scrolls as Jews! (Jews used scrolls, Christians codices.) Marcion was a radical. If Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism, it would not be so incredibly unrecognizable as Marcion's version. What you propose, to use a political analogy, is akin to a Conservative turning Liberal, and then filling the "Holy Book of Liberalism" with Conservative quotes so as to become a Moderate. Does that sound logical to you?
(March 30, 2013 at 9:34 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Let's go with this for a second. It is still clear that the story as a whole is a fabrication because the bit Matthew is quoting isn't even a prophecy to begin with. Even if it was, it hasn't been fulfilled. Notice Matthew's cheeky sleight of hand:
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Matthew 1:23
The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel.
Matthew has changed it from being the mother who will call the son Immanuel, to the general public calling him Immanuel "which means God with us", because quite clearly, the "messiah" isn't called Immanuel. The simple explanation to this is, as I stated, that Isaiah isn't talking about some messiah. He's talking with king Ahaz about his enemies and what not. So clearly, when one reads the chapter properly, the entire aura surrounding this verse as a "messianic prophecy" vanishes.
Actually, the literal Greek-English translation from the Septuagint is "Behold, the virgin [in the womb will conceive], and shall bear a son, and you shall call his name Immanuel." It generally means "his name shall be so called" which connotes the same meaning as Matthew's "they". Isaiah himself was speaking to the house of David, the royal family of Judah (Isaiah 7:13). They--his own people--shall call him Immanuel. But you're right that Isaiah meant the prophecy to be fulfilled in his time. Most prophecies are this way. The miracle isn't that Isaiah randomly predicted the future in the middle of a message to Ahaz. It is that all through history there are types--types of Messiahs, redeemers and saviors who illustrate and foreshadow the one Messiah who was to come. This isn't a fortune-telling. It's a demonstration of God's grand plan.
