Problem of Divine Freedom

[Esquilax]

I'm not being obtuse esq. I'm being literally accurate.

I don't claim to fully understand God, no. If something is beyond our understanding that doesn't also make it illogical. God can only do what is logically possible ...is the claim.

Oh, okay, you kind of missed the point, I see where the disconnect is now. I'm not saying that something beyond our understanding is necessarily illogical, just that it implies the existence of additional laws of logic that are unknown to us, since these things beyond our understanding don't comply with the laws as we understand them.

And that's fine, I'm just saying that this makes the idea that god is constrained by the laws of logic a little meaningless from a human perspective, since those constraints also encompass a set of unknown unknowns; god might be capable only of that which is logically possible, but that still leaves a lot of wriggle room.

You say that genesis makes scientific claims on origins. I can show you very clearly, backed up by corroborating evidence that it does no such thing. The arguments for Creationism and ID have no such support.

I agree that, on a factual level, there's no support for those ideas, but they are still depicted in genesis, which is all I was saying. The christian creation account does include an ex nihilo miraculous act, if one were to simply read the words on the page.

Changing the subject to science... are you saying that you know something from nothing is scientifically disproven? I've been following the discussions on here and I didn't get that idea at all.

Well, I wouldn't say that what I was describing was strictly something from nothing, given that there was something- god- there to create it. But that is an instance of a creative act by a conscious being that required no pre-existing material, even a universe for that being to exist in, and I would say that is a proposition for which we have no evidence. It is logically incompatible with what we know about reality, which hints that, if one were to accept that it happened, there are additional logical tenets elsewhere.