RE: No rational case for God = increasingly desperate attacks on atheists
July 10, 2014 at 5:37 pm
(This post was last modified: July 10, 2014 at 5:59 pm by ManMachine.)
(July 10, 2014 at 12:43 pm)Cato Wrote:(July 10, 2014 at 10:03 am)ManMachine Wrote: ...Christianity today is nothing like Christianity of the 5 century BCE, but they will never be 'out of people'.
Christianity in the 5th century BCE. That's a neat fucking trick.
I blame pope Gregory XIII for that one, sorry, of course I meant AD.
MM
(July 10, 2014 at 3:52 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Perhaps you have a little too much faith in Gray. Of course religion is still influential in the US but you're distracting from the claim, which is that we're no less secular today than we were 150 years ago. Do we really have to go into this and start listing the differences between now and then and the progress that has been made in diminishing the influence of religion in the public sphere? (And don't twist my words into saying there's not still a tremendous amount of work to be done).
Perhaps I do. You are right there is no point in gainsaying matters of opinion, although I did post some links to research in my reply in support of my opinion.
Your point about homosexuals is perhaps not representing the argument as it introduces the element of what people do in the name of religion. Religion, or at least the prevailing religion in America at the time did not and still does not advocate imprisoning and executing homosexuals, that behaviour (at least in a Western context) is born of 19th century values. In medieval Europe homosexual relationships were largely ignored, King James I famously had a male lover, the worst he suffered was a leaflet campaign.
Let's not be too assured about what we consider to be secular progress, we still suffer from a values-hangover born of pernicious Victorian morality.
The subject is as long as it is broad, which goes back to your point about tit-for tat gainsaying, it would be pointless and not move the debate any further on. Let's agree to disagree.
I will look into what you say, I will also re-read my books by Gray and weigh any new information up against his opinions. A number of people I know who have read his works find his books better as they give him time to frame his arguments, which are quite complex, he has a phenomenal grasp of philosophy, one of the finest I've come across.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
