RE: What would it take to change your mind?
January 4, 2009 at 10:17 am
(This post was last modified: January 4, 2009 at 10:18 am by Demonaura.)
There are a few problems I see right off the bat FutureAndHope. From the top about your story about god speaking to you.
While it would be a remarkable coincedence that you heard a definative voice that exactly matched up with your experience that day it's not that uncommon in a general sense. I cannot possibly count the things I think in my head (even just in the morning) with a voice not my own. By this I mean I think words that do not sound like me talking, I am in control and know that it is still me but, sometimes my mind will wanter and say whatever and I have to stop for a second and thinking about why I thought that.
Secondly, it can't really be used as evidence even for yourself. You have no way of knowing if you actually heard anything that morning or if you made it up later. I have a personal story in my history that suggested I have limited psychic powers (just hear me out ok lol). I had a dream that I was in an unfamiliar house as a child and I opened the back door to go play and all the dogs rushed out and they weren't allowed outside so they got in trouble. The next day it happened. Or did it? Did I really dream that at all or was it simply a moment of deja vu? I can't know for sure, that is why personal experience and memory is not a reliable form of evidence. If many people around me suddenly said they also had the same dream, and we talked about it it would have a little more merit but, not enough to mean anything conclusive yet. We would need to reproduce the event in some reliable way to consider it, or even consider that I had this dream to start with.
Yout example of a miracle is a common one. Our bodies heal naturally, and very well I might add. Your prayer could have been well timed, or it literally could have been the fact that you supported him that gave him a reason to work harder at healing. After all we have proven that your mental state affects healing (Laugher is the best medicine.ect). In this case your support was of benefit but, the beleif and all the sacrifices you make (and dont try to tell me you dont make any) to your beleif in god are not needed to help people.
The other common reply to such a story, why did god focus on this one guy? Because you prayed for him? He seems to be handling alright by himself, as I explained your support might have been enough. Why not give his divine miracles where it actually makes a difference? A village that will have a terrible food shortage because there has not been rain for weeks and the crps are dry and dying? A terminally ill cancer patient leaving behind two young daughters with an abusive father or none at all? Suddenly this mans healing back seems like a petty prayer with selfish intentions when theres so many other people you could REALLY help with your ability to make god do what you ask.
I'll use a real example given to me by a friend. Of why he is christian. I hope I am not violating any boundries but, to be sure I wont say anything about him other than that he is christian and the following: His chosen example of a miracle was me. He didn't have a whole lot of friends when he was younger and his family prayed to meet a good friend for him as he entered high school. Apparently I was the answer. First point: Our school had over 2000 students at the time, we met in an elective course that we both signed up for because of an interest. How odd that we shared interests when we signed up for courses we were interested in!
Second point: He beleives god knows all. Therefore god knew I was going to quickly research Religion and become an Agnostic Atheist who is also Anti-religious. I made him think about his faith, a sin. His book commands him to kill me, specifically and clearly with no room for interpretation. (my theory is he is religious only because he knows nothing else and indocrination from birth is a hard thing to break.)
Hmm, not such a great miracle anymore? Sorta unrelated to your examples but, something I wanted to share. I look forward to your reply, I admit I would like to get into debate because I beleive it is a great way for two parties to learn and it makes for a great mental workout.
If this is nonsensical then my bad, I wrote this at 6AM and I am literally swaying in my chair about to QWERTYdive. Time for bed.
EDIT: Holy alien cowcrap monster post! Sorry for the long read! Guess I got into a too much!
While it would be a remarkable coincedence that you heard a definative voice that exactly matched up with your experience that day it's not that uncommon in a general sense. I cannot possibly count the things I think in my head (even just in the morning) with a voice not my own. By this I mean I think words that do not sound like me talking, I am in control and know that it is still me but, sometimes my mind will wanter and say whatever and I have to stop for a second and thinking about why I thought that.
Secondly, it can't really be used as evidence even for yourself. You have no way of knowing if you actually heard anything that morning or if you made it up later. I have a personal story in my history that suggested I have limited psychic powers (just hear me out ok lol). I had a dream that I was in an unfamiliar house as a child and I opened the back door to go play and all the dogs rushed out and they weren't allowed outside so they got in trouble. The next day it happened. Or did it? Did I really dream that at all or was it simply a moment of deja vu? I can't know for sure, that is why personal experience and memory is not a reliable form of evidence. If many people around me suddenly said they also had the same dream, and we talked about it it would have a little more merit but, not enough to mean anything conclusive yet. We would need to reproduce the event in some reliable way to consider it, or even consider that I had this dream to start with.
Yout example of a miracle is a common one. Our bodies heal naturally, and very well I might add. Your prayer could have been well timed, or it literally could have been the fact that you supported him that gave him a reason to work harder at healing. After all we have proven that your mental state affects healing (Laugher is the best medicine.ect). In this case your support was of benefit but, the beleif and all the sacrifices you make (and dont try to tell me you dont make any) to your beleif in god are not needed to help people.
The other common reply to such a story, why did god focus on this one guy? Because you prayed for him? He seems to be handling alright by himself, as I explained your support might have been enough. Why not give his divine miracles where it actually makes a difference? A village that will have a terrible food shortage because there has not been rain for weeks and the crps are dry and dying? A terminally ill cancer patient leaving behind two young daughters with an abusive father or none at all? Suddenly this mans healing back seems like a petty prayer with selfish intentions when theres so many other people you could REALLY help with your ability to make god do what you ask.
I'll use a real example given to me by a friend. Of why he is christian. I hope I am not violating any boundries but, to be sure I wont say anything about him other than that he is christian and the following: His chosen example of a miracle was me. He didn't have a whole lot of friends when he was younger and his family prayed to meet a good friend for him as he entered high school. Apparently I was the answer. First point: Our school had over 2000 students at the time, we met in an elective course that we both signed up for because of an interest. How odd that we shared interests when we signed up for courses we were interested in!
Second point: He beleives god knows all. Therefore god knew I was going to quickly research Religion and become an Agnostic Atheist who is also Anti-religious. I made him think about his faith, a sin. His book commands him to kill me, specifically and clearly with no room for interpretation. (my theory is he is religious only because he knows nothing else and indocrination from birth is a hard thing to break.)
Hmm, not such a great miracle anymore? Sorta unrelated to your examples but, something I wanted to share. I look forward to your reply, I admit I would like to get into debate because I beleive it is a great way for two parties to learn and it makes for a great mental workout.
If this is nonsensical then my bad, I wrote this at 6AM and I am literally swaying in my chair about to QWERTYdive. Time for bed.
EDIT: Holy alien cowcrap monster post! Sorry for the long read! Guess I got into a too much!
