Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: June 7, 2024, 8:41 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Becoming an angry atheist
#61
RE: Becoming an angry atheist
(December 8, 2014 at 11:55 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Aquinas does not use the fifth way to explain high order levels of order, i.e. apparent design. The 5th way grounds Aristotelian final causes, at all levels of reality, in intelligent agency. Complex intentionality is possible at the higher degrees of reality precisely because it is already present more fundamentally. The common experience to be explained is why changes occur in particular ways and not in randomly.

Now, the regularity of nature is either a contingent or necessary fact. If it is necessary then no further explanation is required. If it is a contingent must be explained by that which is necessary or a series of contingencies that lead back to a necessity. Since knowledge based on induction is by its nature contingent, it is proper to seek that which makes our world intelligible.

Anyone can see from common experience (induction) that reality holds together in an intelligible way. When people take this induced knowledge for granted they quickly fall into the absurdity trap of occasionalism when they try to defend it. Even most occasionalists still tacitly believe that something holds causality together, even if they think that something itself remains unintelligible. Those, like me, who believe the universe is actually intelligible, say that something necessary serves as the ground for the regularities of efficient cause. Either way, occationalist or otherwise, there must be something. All that remains is to give that something a name. Hmmm…

You're begging the question again. Even if we agree to the fact that something may be required to create order, you still haven't established that it requires intelligence. The question is whether or not the fact that matter behaves in a particular manner requires an intelligence. You then use common experience as your proof because the order we human beings see comes from intelligence, but for that to be proof, you have to ignore the very question we are asking in the first place. There is order we see that we are sure of its origins and that is due to intelligence. Then there is order that we are unsure of its origins, and the origin of that order is the question we are attempting to answer. You are trying to prove that the origin of the order we are unsure of is intelligence by simply declaring that all order is due to an intelligence, but we cannot know that because we are asking the question, "where does this other order come from?"
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Becoming an angry atheist - by Natachan - December 6, 2014 at 11:52 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 12:21 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Esquilax - December 6, 2014 at 12:34 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 12:42 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Esquilax - December 6, 2014 at 12:50 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 12:54 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Peebo-Thuhlu - December 7, 2014 at 4:58 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Whateverist - December 6, 2014 at 1:19 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 1:24 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Whateverist - December 6, 2014 at 1:59 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 6, 2014 at 4:10 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by simplemoss - December 8, 2014 at 12:04 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by polar bear - December 6, 2014 at 12:59 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Elskidor - December 6, 2014 at 1:03 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Heywood - December 6, 2014 at 1:07 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by FreeTony - December 6, 2014 at 1:39 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 6, 2014 at 2:09 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LastPoet - December 6, 2014 at 3:10 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by KevinM1 - December 6, 2014 at 4:24 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Natachan - December 6, 2014 at 7:48 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 12:14 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 7, 2014 at 1:58 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 12:01 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 7, 2014 at 4:30 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Minimalist - December 6, 2014 at 7:52 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 2:03 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 5:12 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by FreeTony - December 7, 2014 at 6:45 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 6:50 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Natachan - December 7, 2014 at 12:15 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 12:28 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by abaris - December 7, 2014 at 12:33 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Minimalist - December 7, 2014 at 2:37 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 7, 2014 at 2:45 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 2:58 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 7, 2014 at 2:59 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LostLocke - December 7, 2014 at 3:23 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 5:13 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LostLocke - December 7, 2014 at 8:38 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 8, 2014 at 2:47 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2014 at 9:57 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LostLocke - December 8, 2014 at 10:09 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 8, 2014 at 10:19 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Whateverist - December 8, 2014 at 7:37 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Chas - December 17, 2014 at 10:34 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 3:12 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 1:27 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2014 at 2:55 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 7, 2014 at 2:30 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 2:32 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 2:55 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 7, 2014 at 2:56 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 7, 2014 at 3:14 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by abaris - December 7, 2014 at 3:18 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LivingNumbers - December 7, 2014 at 5:28 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Rarthyr500 - December 7, 2014 at 5:34 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LivingNumbers - December 7, 2014 at 5:58 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Rarthyr500 - December 7, 2014 at 6:01 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LivingNumbers - December 7, 2014 at 6:04 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Foxaèr - December 7, 2014 at 9:20 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2014 at 11:55 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 8, 2014 at 1:04 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Mudhammam - December 8, 2014 at 6:36 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 8, 2014 at 12:39 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 8, 2014 at 4:56 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2014 at 6:24 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 9, 2014 at 4:49 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 9, 2014 at 9:13 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 9, 2014 at 12:14 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 16, 2014 at 6:54 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 17, 2014 at 11:31 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by dyresand - December 17, 2014 at 12:56 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 17, 2014 at 1:51 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 8, 2014 at 1:46 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by TreeSapNest - December 8, 2014 at 2:11 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 8, 2014 at 3:04 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by KevinM1 - December 8, 2014 at 1:49 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 8, 2014 at 1:53 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by LostLocke - December 8, 2014 at 2:14 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by TreeSapNest - December 8, 2014 at 2:26 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 4:05 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 5:27 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 9, 2014 at 6:00 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 6:11 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 9:17 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 9, 2014 at 9:19 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by robvalue - December 9, 2014 at 9:26 am
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Tonus - December 9, 2014 at 12:25 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by dyresand - December 9, 2014 at 4:21 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by The Valkyrie - December 9, 2014 at 4:26 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Natachan - December 10, 2014 at 12:50 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by dyresand - December 10, 2014 at 2:35 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Faith No More - December 10, 2014 at 2:44 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by The Valkyrie - December 10, 2014 at 3:07 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Elskidor - December 10, 2014 at 2:55 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Spooky - December 13, 2014 at 6:38 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Lemonvariable72 - December 13, 2014 at 7:15 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Neo-Scholastic - December 17, 2014 at 1:34 pm
RE: Becoming an angry atheist - by Thumpalumpacus - December 17, 2014 at 1:49 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Does forming an atheist community pose a risk to becoming a religion? yogamaster 42 4807 June 22, 2019 at 11:45 am
Last Post: Fake Messiah
  Angry Atheists and Anti-Theists Agnostico 186 19404 December 31, 2018 at 12:22 pm
Last Post: T0 Th3 M4X
  Angry, condescending atheists Starman 91 11104 February 26, 2018 at 6:44 am
Last Post: Edwardo Piet
  Iceland is becoming atheist. Jehanne 13 2812 February 8, 2018 at 12:08 am
Last Post: haig
  does the "Israel becoming a nation again prophecy" have any value snerie 48 13643 April 1, 2017 at 2:17 am
Last Post: Amarok
  Angry parents over "Islam Homework" LOL??? GoHalos1993 41 9159 December 19, 2015 at 5:20 am
Last Post: abaris
  I think my mother may be becoming an atheist, advice? IanHulett 22 5821 October 17, 2015 at 5:09 pm
Last Post: abaris
  Myth of The Angry Atheist brewer 35 8388 July 31, 2015 at 6:51 pm
Last Post: Athene
  Is Atheism becoming a religion? liberalNutjob 0 1348 March 8, 2015 at 12:54 am
Last Post: liberalNutjob
  Is Sam Harris becoming a pariah for the anti-religious cause? Mudhammam 90 15467 August 9, 2014 at 8:47 pm
Last Post: Thumpalumpacus



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)