What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[robvalue]

You're doing a great job answering all these questions! I imagine it could be quite overwhelming having all us atheists running amok

I'm quite surprised by what you say about same gender sex. You started off with the same premise as me, that morality is based around treating others how you'd want to be treated. That covers almost all of morality in a single stroke, in a very general sense at least.

So where is the harm for consensual same sex adults having sex? How can we possibly know God didn't "intend" it, and why is that a factor all of a sudden? We don't need to think that way to easily see murder is wrong. We don't consider whether he intended it or not. Clearly he didn't put anything in place to stop it happening! So why are we using this new line of reasoning? Clearly the two gays involved are happy to have sex, and aren't breaking "the golden rule". So wherein lies the problem?

The fact that he supposedly set up evolution so as to create homosexuals (in other animals as well not just humans) makes homosexuals just as much a part of our society as anyone else. If he didn't intend it, but keeps allowing homosexuals to be created, and then expects them to either suppress their urges or pretend to be hetero, that is a cruel God in my opinion. If he can't stop them being made, then he's not much of a god. He's kind of bitching about his own "faults" there, not that I consider gays to be in any way faulty.

Also, you talk about child rearing. I don't agree that same sex parents are any worse, but even if we pretend they were, what's this has to do with sexual acts? Two men or two women can have sex all their lives without producing or hurting any children. It's an entirely seperate issue as to if they do have children through a surrogate/donor or adopt. Personally I think they should have the same right as everyone else regarding this, but again even if you don't, why also deny them sexual activity? Isn't that kicking them when they are down?

I realize it's just your opinion, I'm just pointing out what seems to me to be a huge contradiction and a massive leap to get from simple morality to suppressing gay sex. Either you personally find it immoral or you don't; if you do, then your reasons don't seem to add up, in my opinion. If it "upsets God" is that really a good enough reason? Doesn't that point to an all-too-human figure rather than a hugely powerful deity? Should we really worry about his feelings to that degree? If you don't personally think it's immoral but are forced to say it is because you are Catholic, then that's a big problem too.