pop morality

[athrock]

Sure, but we're talking about two different things now. I'm not advocating for prayer in the classroom during the school day (I could, but I'm not). I thought your objection was to public prayer (when other people can see you) in general since you quoted the passage from Matthew.

My objection was to public prayer, especially at events where there is a captive audience, so to speak, such as at schools. The point of having those meetings at the schools, to have the activities in the public square, is to be seen by others-- group pressure makes a very effective tool for proselytizing. Thus the verses.

Well, unless there are a bunch of neighborhood kids roaming the halls unsupervised on Sunday mornings, I wouldn't exactly say that anyone is at risk of being evangelized when a small congregation rents the cafeteria of a local high school for a couple of hours on a Sunday morning.

Actually, the reason that some people pray in school buildings is because their church cannot afford to build or buy a building, yet. Another reason would be the obvious desire to ask for God's blessing upon all gathered/participating. Now, there is something to really turn the atheist's crank. Imagine that asking for blessings that would benefit others.  

No. Even assuming for a moment that your god is real and really, really wants us to pray so he'll do the things we want done for us, such as blessing a service, you can ask for that blessing individually without making it a part of the service. Doing it as part of the ceremony makes it look more official. Do you really think that if 95% of the people at a service in, say, Decatur, Georgia, are praying silently at the outset of every ceremony, that God would find that less pleasing than spewing "God, oh God, love us, because we love youuuuuu!" from a stage? The point is to be seen by men, not by God, who sees into your heads (according to your mythology).

You're against prayer in public. Got it.

I do have two questions that have come to mind as I am typing.

1. As a FORMER Christian, is there any one Christian that you actually admire for his or her faith and witness to the gospel? Obviously, I'm not asking if you agree with him or her...just whether you can see any good anywhere in Christianity.

2. Regardless of your current feelings about God, do you acknowledge that the Christian moral code (doing unto others, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc.) has positive benefits for society as a whole...including for those who are not believers but living among those who are?

Thanks.

1. Not for their "witness to the gospel", no, but I do admire those Christians who quietly go about making the world a better place by following the instructions of the man called the Christ. While I've known many Christians I've admired for their dedication to the servcie of others as a result of their beliefs, one amazing nun (still alive) and a Monsignor (now deceased) come to mind, in particular. I'm also an admirer of the many Christians who are scientists that advance our knowledge of the universe and ourselves, both historical and current, from Isaac Newton to Gregor Mendel to Francis Collins (and many more, of course).

You forgot Fr. LeMaitre, the Catholic priest who proposed the Big Bang theory. And though he is not a Catholic, Collins was appointed to the Pontifical Academy of Science by Pope Benedict XVI.

But this is a good answer. Are there one or two people you might name specifically for their service to the poor and social causes?

2. No, I don't "acknowledge the Christian moral code" because it's not specific to Christianity. Christians did not make that "do unto others" thing up, either. And while in some cases religion makes people do wonderful things for others, it doesn't require religion to do so... indeed, there's quite a bit of evidence that the converse is true, from the dearth of atheist prisoners compared to their representation in the country to the studies that show atheist kids are better to others than the children of the devout. Many of the things we attribute to Christianity's influence on culture (yes, I've read the Catholic papers that claim Christianity made the modern age of civil rights possible) are just as attributable to the increase in literacy overall, as the printing press and non-Latin translations of the Bible made people want to learn to read and then keep reading... but there are numerous pagan influences as well, most especially that of the Vikings via the Danelaw, which was nearly half of England until unified in the 11th century by the Norman invasion.

In modern society, I think most of the rights we enjoy (including the 1st amendment) were fought for and won against the influence of the Papacy, and later against the WASP influence on and domination of American culture, and our nation is significantly better for it. Even in this century/millennium, not a day goes by that I don't see something that religion hasn't turned sour because of the ideologies it espouses... just last Friday, I overheard someone talking about a "faggot" and gleefully chortling over how he'll go to hell. While I know that homophobia is hardly unique to Judeo-Christian thought (the Romans had a conservative half to their society, just as we do today, and many of our ideas about gays come from those Roman prejudices as enhanced by Christianity, after they made that their official religion), and people claim it's "just another sin", I've never heard anyone talk about divorcees the way they talk about gays. Ever. Practically every day I go into public, I head something that makes me shake my head and think of what a better world it could be if religion wasn't so pervasive... and if I get to thinking about the 1000 years we lost in the Dark/Middle Ages, in which religion practically controlled all Europeans' thought, and the fact that we could be 1000 years more technologically advanced (same thing happened with the Muslims, after a brief period of enlightenment that ended in the 11th century CE), I get sick to my stomach.

And here I see a fundamental flaw in your thinking, Rocket. I understand what your are objecting to concerning "religion" but that's not the real issue, is it? The problem is not that we have too much religion...the problem is that we have too few genuine disciples. Gandhi said, “I like your Christ; I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” He has a good point.

So, what if real discipleship were MORE pervasive?

And before you whip out that old trope about atheist communists -- I am officially sick to death of having to have that conversation with people who refuse to listen -- and the horrors committed by Stalin, Mao, etc., I should make it clear that I consider that form of communism to be just as much a religion as yours, albeit a godless one like Taoism or Buddhism.

Okay. I am officially on notice regarding this.