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C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
#1
C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
In book one of Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis presents his own version of the argument from morality which originated with Immanuel Kant.  Lewis' version goes like this:

1.  There is a universal human nature that reflects a universal moral law.  And what he means by this is not that there are a universal set of moral standards deciding all moral behavior but rather that all humans appear to have a conscience and that while that conscience might be influenced by culture, it's basic principles are universal to humans.  And when arguing about right and wrong, people appeal to a basic sense of fairness that they assume everyone has, or as Lewis puts it, a sense of "oughtness." And people rarely argue that the fairness is an unjust standard, instead they argue that what they have done is fair. He adds that cultures may differ as to who you must be fair to, but not that there are people to whom you must be fair.

In a broad general sense I accept this premise.  People do appear to have some very basic, and I do mean extremely basic common ideas about morality.  Lewis mentions that there are no countries where double crossing those closest to you or running away in battle is considered good.  But cultural differences kick in very shortly.  People do double cross each other.  It's only double crossing your close friends and immediate relatives that's universally condemned.  Pacifists find never agreeing to battle at all more moral and argue to that effect.  Norms vary widely  especially considering: sexual mores (gay sex, multiple wives, showing a ankle, recreational sex, sex even when married to persons more than ten years younger, all are allowed and condemned variously); sex based roles (property rights of women, who should do various tasks, wear various clothing); when killing is appropriate as to who (foreigners, servants, slaves, children, women) and why (crimes, battle, status); when stealing is appropriate (usually only allowed with regard to outsiders but how outside and under what circumstances differs widely); appropriate compensation (some cultures have absolute amounts, or think scarcity is not a valid reason for higher prices).  I would suggest that the variation is too great to suggest that that people share much morality.  What we share is merely the sense that there should be morality based in part on fairness though we differ about what is fair. But most of morality is not based on the idea of fairness.

2. Moral law is more than just human instinct because when it conflicts with another instinct such as survival, we work our  way to doing the more uncomfortable but right thing because of an inner voice rather than a blind inner instinct.  If we fail to do the right think our conscience bothers us afterword.  Essentially what he is saying is that moral instinct is not an instinct but an outside law.

I don't see how this suggests it is not an instinct.  Our instincts conflict all the time.  Survival and sex conflict.  Morality and sex conflict.  Immediate comfort/food gratification and long term survival conflict.  We reason it out.  Or we don't.  Sometimes we just act.  Lewis suggests we weight morality against risking our lives to save someone else.  Most heroes, say then didn't think about the risk until it was too late to do anything but rescue.


3. We do not always follow The Moral Law, therefore it is not merely a description of the way things work, the way gravity is a description of what happens when a rock falls.

Yep we fail at morality.  We fail a survival too be not paying the pain, risk, or immediate gratification price necessary to survive.  Does that make survival an outside law?  

4. The voice that tells us what we ought to do, is not part of the material world.

This I don't see at all.  It's a god of the gaps argument and not a good one since evolutionary development explains morality just fine.  Apes and chimps have some morality.  So do bears.   How much has to do with how much the species social structures allow the species to survive.  We are extraordinarily dependent on our fellows, though not as much as bees and ants, and our morals reflect that.  They also reflect the time necessary to raise our young.

5.  Therefore moral law must come from outside the material world. 

If four were true maybe, but four isn't.

6.  Therefore there must be a law giver outside the material world.

If all of the rest followed possibly.  But this law giver must both be outside the material world and materially affect the the material world.  Odd and unlikely.   And there's no reason such law giver must be sentient, or powerful in any other way or that is couldn't just be a law of the universe.

The whole proof fails at all levels. Frankly it's a classic demonstration of why the god-of-the-gaps is a fallacy.  Morality wasn't explicable, now evolution explains it.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#2
RE: C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
Proponents of Lewis are welcome to better explain his argument. I did my best to avoid straw manning him.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#3
RE: C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
C.S. Lewis was a great storyteller, and not much else. His arguments for his faith were really no better that Randy's.
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
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#4
RE: C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
(August 1, 2015 at 6:18 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote: C.S. Lewis was a great storyteller, and not much else. His arguments for his faith were really no better that Randy's.

Pretty much.  I enjoyed Narnia but mostly because of the insight into how humans behave.  His scifi trilogy was too blatantly Christian for me.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#5
RE: C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
I think you should read David Hume's Enquiry Concerning the Principles of Morals.  He explains why it is that people have a similar, though not identical, sense of morality.

Here is a link:

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/341

I personally prefer reading an actual book, but reading at the link is free.  The actual book I recommend would either be the Selby-Bigge edition that is current, or the other recent alternative that Oxford has come out with.

As for the specific argument, you would be better off with Kant than with C.S. Lewis if you wanted anything close to intellectual rigor. Lewis was an idiot.  (For those too fucking stupid to realize this, that is not an argument, it is just an insult.  Consequently, it is not an argumentum ad hominem.)

"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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#6
RE: C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
(August 1, 2015 at 5:41 pm)Jenny A Wrote: In a broad general sense I accept this premise.  People do appear to have some very basic, and I do mean extremely basic common ideas about morality.

That would be because we're a social species. Every social species has rules. Wolves as well as Great Apes and monkeys, dogs - even ants, wasps and bees. It's natural and certainly not divinely inspired. It makes it easier for the group to achieve common goals and to survive.
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#7
RE: C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
(August 1, 2015 at 6:43 pm)abaris Wrote:
(August 1, 2015 at 5:41 pm)Jenny A Wrote: In a broad general sense I accept this premise.  People do appear to have some very basic, and I do mean extremely basic common ideas about morality.

That would be because we're a social species. Every social species has rules. Wolves as well as Great Apes and monkeys, dogs - even ants, wasps and bees. It's natural and certainly not divinely inspired. It makes it easier for the group to achieve common goals and to survive.

Yep, and you will notice that I mention that.  Morality is an evolutionary concept created by social species.  We are a very complex and socially varied species,and we've created a complex and varied morality.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#8
RE: C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
(August 1, 2015 at 6:46 pm)Jenny A Wrote: We are a very complex and socially varied species,and we've created a complex and varied morality.

And very different ones at different times in different cultures for that matter.
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#9
C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
Thank you Jenny for creating the thread. While it is too late now for me to formulate my responses to your points (I will hopefully have time tomorrow for this) I wanted to ask a question.

Most (not all) that hold to an atheistic worldview prescribe to the notion that this world came to be by naturalistic means and has no design, no purpose, it just is. We just happen to be here as part of a naturalistic process. So the question is this (its twofold). What does evil really mean in a mechanistic universe? How does one define what is evil unless you first assume what is purpose?
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.
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#10
RE: C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality
(August 2, 2015 at 11:06 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Thank you Jenny for creating the thread. While it is too late now for me to formulate my responses to your points (I will hopefully have time tomorrow for this) I wanted to ask a question.

Most (not all) that hold to an atheistic worldview prescribe to the notion that this world came to be by naturalistic means and has no design, no purpose, it just is. We just happen to be here as part of a naturalistic process. So the question is this (its twofold).  What does evil really mean in a mechanistic universe?  How does one define what is evil unless you first assume what is purpose?

Good question.  I don't think there is a atheistic world view.  However, if you hold a naturalist world view, and I do, the question remains.

I do not think the world has a design or purpose.  That doesn't excuse us from creating one for ourselves.  That leads to some uncomfortable conclusions. Is there such a thing as evil is one of them.  Real answers often are often uncomfortable.  Unfortunately, uncomfortable is not the same or even likely to be the same as wrong.

Evil is a concept invented and defined by humans.  It pertains primarily to the treatment of humans by humans.  It varies by culture.  But all it really means is actions that without justification deliberately, unreasonably or unnecessarily harm humans perceived as humans or beings humans feel empathy for.   I bolded perceived because humans acting badly to other humans they have mentally dehumanized  often don't consider themselves evil though those watching from the outside still do.  Unfortunately both religion and science have been used to dehumanize others and thus restrict the definition of evil.  But religion is the more common culprit.

Flash points in the morality wars tend to center on who is really human.  Thus people of other religions, races, genders, sexual orientations, wealth, etc. have all been targets of atrocious actions by people who do not consider themselves evil.  Naturally the victims and some outsiders do consider those actions evil.

Not too long ago a Christian on this site asked if it would be evil if aliens sexually abused and then ate humans.  The interesting part of that question to me is the assumption that the aliens were sentient and could empathize with us.  I doubt anyone thinks a man eating tiger or bear is evil, at least not if they stop to think about it it rationally.  Evil comes down to hurting what you should have empathy for.  If the aliens found us as far beneath them as we find chickens it might not be evil from their perspective.  But from ours it would be dire if not evil.  But that's because we are us and not the aliens.

I find the god of the bible evil because he should, but does not have, the empathy for creatures created in his likeness he should have.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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