RE: The Problem with Christians
March 7, 2016 at 12:50 pm
(This post was last modified: March 7, 2016 at 12:51 pm by TheRocketSurgeon.)
(March 7, 2016 at 12:35 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:(March 7, 2016 at 12:08 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: You must define chattel slavery some other way than the rest of us, then, Hugs. Just because the English word "bondmen" is used in place of slavery doesn't change the fact that it immediately goes on to define what it means, and what it means is chattel slavery for anyone who's not a fellow Israelite (to whom the Indentured Servitude rules to which you've referred would apply).
44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
http://biblehub.com/kjv/leviticus/25.htm
Not to get off topic, but Hebrew law explicitly forbade anyone to force a person into servitude without their consent.
Quote:And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:16
http://www.gotquestions.org/bondservant.html
Quote:In Roman times, the term bondservant or slave could refer to someone who voluntarily served others. But it usually referred to one who was held in a permanent position of servitude. Under Roman law, a bondservant was considered the owner’s personal property. Slaves essentially had no rights and could even be killed with impunity by their owners.
The Hebrew word for “bondservant,” ‘ebed, had a similar connotation. However, the Mosaic Law allowed an indentured servant to become a bondservant voluntarily: “If the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life” (Exodus 21:5-6).
Yes, except it wasn't written in Roman times. You're over 1000 years off. You're also completely ignoring, by jumping into the semantics and "connotations" of the words, that it explicitly says that you can own their children and will them to your children, that you own them for life.
The verses you cite in "defense" of this practice are part of the Indentured Servitude practice (which was also practiced, in the Biblical form of six-years-of-voluntary-slavery-then-out, here in the USA, and is how many white people got over here from Europe, while Native Americans and African Americans were subjected to the other sort of slavery, chattel slavery, per Biblical instructions... it's appalling to me that you pretend not to notice the difference), as you can see if you read all the verses in context:
1 `And these [are] the judgments which thou dost set before them:
2 `When thou buyest a Hebrew servant -- six years he doth serve, and in the seventh he goeth out as a freeman for nought; 3 if by himself he cometh in, by himself he goeth out; if he [is] owner of a wife, then his wife hath gone out with him;
4 if his lord give to him a wife, and she hath borne to him sons or daughters -- the wife and her children are her lord's, and he goeth out by himself.
5 `And if the servant really say: I have loved my lord, my wife, and my sons -- I do not go out free; 6 then hath his lord brought him nigh unto God, and hath brought him nigh unto the door, or unto the side-post, and his lord hath bored his ear with an awl, and he hath served him -- to the age.
(Exodus 21, KJV)
The "And he who stealeth a man, and hath sold him, and he hath been found in his hand, is certainly put to death." verse, a few lines later, is obviously a prohibition about kidnapping, even though it's for the purpose of turning the person into a slave. The Exodus 21 list is about things Israelites can/can't do to one another, and has nothing to do with our discussion about foreign slaves. You really REALLY need to watch Rob's video, because you sound just like the god depicted in that video right now.
And by the way, the article you cited starts with these lines:
A bondservant is a slave. In some Bibles the word bondservant is the translation of the Greek word doulos, which means “one who is subservient to, and entirely at the disposal of, his master; a slave.” Other translations use the word slave or servant.
In Roman times, the term bondservant or slave could refer to someone who voluntarily served others. But it usually referred to one who was held in a permanent position of servitude.
Emphasis, of course, my own.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.