Karma poll

[Little Rik]

1) Without suffering people will keep on doing the same mistakes.

I find it interesting that for point (1) you use a traffic violation as the example, but for number (3) you talk about people who "torture, kill or did a lot of crimes that affect a lot of people."  Do you consider these to be the same?  Imagine a world where the worst crime is speeding.  You really think that the present system is better, because eventually the people who torture and kill and rape will get punished in an endless loop?  Because that's stupid.

1) All I did is putting examples where actions produce reactions.
You may well come to the conclusions that one example is not the same as the other.
That's ok but my intention was very very simple.
It was all about actions that produce reactions regardless of their gravity.

2) When a negative karma pop up as a reaction is bad anyway regardless his weight.

2) NDEs are clear evidence that there is Karma.

No, they're not.  NDEs are evidence that the brain can do funny things when it is oxygen deprived for a short time.  Nothing more.

Ton.  
We already went through this argument before and guess what?
The brain deprived of oxygen is in no way capable of building up an experience that is sharp and clear even after years that happened such as the NDEs one.
All a brain in that state can produce are hallucinations if ever and hallucinations are blurred visions that in a short time disappear from the mind.
You show me solid evidence that the brain in that state can produce sharp and clear experiences and I will give a truckload full of 24 carat gold.  

3) In one life time in most cases there is not enough time to experience all karma.
Take those who torture, kill or did a lot of crimes that affect a lot of people.
Some people need to be reborn again and again to pay their debt.
In one life they could not possibly pay all their debts.

But in point (1) you described karma as a way to help people learn from their mistakes.  If karma waits until someone is in a whole new life to act, how would that person learn that torture or murder is wrong?

Ton.
You don't get it, do you?  

The reason why we have consciousness and subconsciousness is because consciousness is like the part of the iceberg above the water and subconsciousness is the part below.
A sub-marine is called such because it stay under the water.
You can not see it even if you know that exist unless it pop up above the water.
Our subconscious mind is not visible but it is there and it is this big chunk of consciousness that knows
everything.
She knows all about us as it is connected to the universal consciousness but that is a long philosophical story that you at this stage in time could not possibly understand.
To make it simple the reactions that are lying in this subconscious mind will wait until the proper time come for coming out and up, emerge and producing a reaction.
As you point out it does not make sense to you on the ground that a person is unaware of the action that produce the reaction and I can understand your point in a way but if the reaction would not pop up
then it would stay in the subconscious mind for ever and that would prevent anyone progress.
It is like if you try to carry an enormous weight on and on with no end in sight.
That is why the best thing to do is to get rid of it as soon as possible even if that imply suffering.
Short term suffering is much better than long term suffering.

You never thought about that Ton, did you?

What about the person who is used by karma to carry out this justice?  What did they learn

Ton.
Karma does not use anybody.
If someone will carry out any wrongdoing then that person will incurred in bad karma for himself.
Nobody is an instrument to carry out reactions on other.
One way or an other reactions will pop up anyway even without a person that would carry them out.
Ever you ever heard of natural disasters or any other bad thing that happen naturally?

You define karma differently at your convenience.  That's not very convincing at all.

Give me an example of your accusation so I can reply to you.

4) The universe could not exist without positive and negative.

I have not suggested that the universe should not have negative.  I am pointing out that eliminating the worst suffering is far better than punishing it after the fact and long after it would have been of use to either the perpetrator or the victim.  To you, people are just numbers on a ledger that must balance regardless of how horrible their existence is.  If that's karma, then it's useless and stupid.  If that's god, then it's stupid and wicked.  Come up with a better karma, or come up with a better god. Don't settle for something so useless and stupid.

I already answer this question in one of the answer above in which I mention consciousness and subconsciousness.
Read it.