(January 16, 2017 at 11:15 am)Tonus Wrote:(January 16, 2017 at 6:33 am)Godschild Wrote:
Nearly everyone who ever believed in any god felt the same way. We've had Muslims here making similar claims about Allah. Unless they can demonstrate it, it is only a fact for them. For the person looking from the outside, all the claims are the same-- they cannot be demonstrated in spite of the confidence with which they are made.
I could say the same thing about evolution, no one can ever demonstrate one species becoming another because by the science of evolution it would take many thousands of years to do, seems a convenient answer doesn't it.
Two things here, first there's the fact that the God of creation is the only one who tells us through a book who He is and that He's unchanging, that is as far as I know, I do not know all the religions out there.
Second Christianity is personal and no work is required nor can work make you a Christian, God receives you just as you are, it is His cleansing of a person that is required. All other religions require work and some is extreme. These people believe they have to cleanse themselves for their god, how does that make sense, how could it be possible for a person to cleanse themselves for a supreme being. The only way I see that possible is for that god to have low standards essentially allowing the people to determine how the religion is conducted.
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Tonus Wrote:What do you mean when you say "open heart"?
It means that you will not shield your spirit from the Holy Spirit, as God said about pharaoh, "he has hardened his heart."
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Tonus Wrote:Satan knew God personally and directly, and rejected him. Adam and Eve knew God personally and directly, and rejected him. Judas knew God personally and directly, and rejected him. Around a third of the angels in heaven knew God personally and directly, and rejected him.
Yes you're correct and you have shown what I stated to be true, they rejected who He is, they did not say He doesn't exist. Satan confronts God about Job, a legion of angles asked Jesus not to destroy them and Judas hung himself after he realized that he had betrayed God. None of these, not one said, God does not exist, they saw and believed He exists.
Tonus Wrote:The Egyptian Pharaoh saw God's hand in action throughout his entire kingdom, and defied him anyway. How many people saw Jesus perform miracles and give rousing speeches... and rejected him?
Yes he did and believed he was a god, God proved to him who was the real God and he released the Israelites. He did not say God doesn't exist.
Many saw and rejected, just as you have done, the highest religious people in Israel rejected Him because it meant they would have to give up their status and control of the people and their lives, also the monies they were living high on the hog with, yes I know they did not eat pork. Jesus himself told them many will see the miracles and not believe.
Tonus Wrote:I am pretty sure that you have not gotten to know God as closely as those people did, yet you feel that you cannot reject him. Is it possible that you've made him out to be far more impressive than he really is?
First of all Adam and Eve disobeyed God, what they did was not a rejection.
Satan and the other angels didn't believe He was omnipotent and could destroy them, they were and are powerful beings. They found out differently as we can see when some of them encountered Jesus here on earth where they were banned and asked Him not to destroy them. So yes they knew him but not well enough to believe in His omni-person. I do. Pharaoh thought he was a more powerful god and rejected God's omnipotence, he learned the hard way. I believe in His omnipotence. Judas did not believe Jesus was the all knowing God and rejected Him as the omniscient and omnipotent God because He would not destroy the Romans. I do. Those who saw the miracles and rejected Him just refuse to believe. I believe in God as He has shown himself to be, so I want speak for those others and the depth of their belief, what I will say is that I believe in the total of the God they rejected.
Tonus Wrote:God cannot be very impressive if people with such close contact and experience with him rejected him. Some of them even knew that the price of their defiance was death! There are people throughout the Bible who preferred to die than to serve God. There is a significant disconnect here, IMO.
Yes they did as you are doing, defying even to damnation. They just like you haven't accepted Christ as the savior He is, they all thought they knew more than God, those who in the past have rejected Him will pay a horrible price, will you. No matter who's in the White House there will be those who reject the president even though they have had contact with him/her so it's not contact that makes the difference, it is believing in who God is. Most people who are not impressed with God do not know who He is.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
