(January 30, 2017 at 10:42 am)Tonus Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='1497225' dateline='1485589967']
If God was this terrible being people here want to make Him out to be, He could and would make life hell for all people all the time but, that is not who He is.
Tonus Wrote:But that is who he could be, if he so wished. And none of his actions would be terrible since he was the one doing it. For example-- tormenting people for an eternity seems like a very terrible thing to do, but apologists rationalize it in many ways in order to excuse God for doing it. If God really is above human morals and judgment, no explanations are necessary. Tormenting people is only bad if it's other people doing it without God's express permission. God is doing no wrong.
No, God can't be anything other than who He is, God can't decide to be terrible, evil or whatever you would label it.
Justice can not be justice without punishment and reward. Leave either one out and you do not have justice, you have injustice.
God has made a place for all those who reject his Son which by the way is rejecting God. Those who go there create their own torment because of the way they lived their lives in this world. The torment has degrees and each individual will determine the degree of their own torment. Jesus said so himself. Matt. 10:15
When someone rejects God and dies in that state they have rejected Him eternally, their sin is never forgiven (but their choice) and the sin is against the eternal God, therefore the punishment has to be eternal.
God doesn't need people to make excuses for Him just as He can not be "rightfully" judged.
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Tonus Wrote:But he would still not be upset if I judged his actions. Such as creating a perfect universe that went wrong very quickly. This can't possibly be the best he is capable of, is it?
What makes you believe God would not be upset of your judgment of Him?
What makes you think an omniscient being who is also omnipresent would create the universe any other way than the way He saw to be the only right way.? Just because some of His created ones believe they could have done better doesn't mean God did it wrong. How is it that a man can believe he could envision the entire creation of the universe and believe he would not tilt the scales in his own favor, whether purposely or not?
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Tonus Wrote:I'm not sure what that means. How do our morals come from "who God is"?
We are born with a sense of right and wrong which isn't developed except through teaching and experience. This teaching can come from the morally bankrupt or from morally good people, yet it comes from people who are flawed, so whether from either of the two there will be flaws in the persons morality. Then there's God who is morally perfect and He has given his Word be it written or as the person of Jesus that we can find what God's moral requirements are for us. The Christian has an advantage here because we have accepted the physical Word into our lives which gives us the convection and teaching from the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean we will live sinless lives on the contrary and we are held more accountable because of the k owledge we receive. This doesn't mean we have to work to keep our salvation, it means we should be committed to the moral standards of God to show others who He is.
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Tonus Wrote:This presumes that lying is wicked, yes? But it's not wicked if God does it because God is perfect and good. Since he is perfect and good, everything he does is perfect and good. If he lied, it would be a perfect and good act. So he can lie and not go against his nature. He can curse his most loyal follower and it would not be out of character. God could only act against his nature if he was bound by behavioral rules and moral laws. He is not.
God is bound by who He is and God says He is not a liar, so He can't lie. Lying is an impossibility for God. Your statement, "He is perfect and good, everything He does is perfect and good," is true. Everything after that is not true. God is not bound by behavioral and moral laws, He is the law by His very nature, God can't go against himself, as Jesus said, in Mk. 3:24-26, "a kingdom divided against itself can not stand," and since God's kingdom is eternal He can't go against who HE is. If God were to go against who He is then He could not ask us to be holy as HE is holy, thus He could not be our nudge. He is!
Tonus Wrote:I get where you're coming from with this, but my point is that when we define God in a manner that excuses any moral lapses or questionable behavior by putting him above judgment and outside of our notions of right and wrong... that's where you end up. With a God that can do no wrong, regardless of how many wrong things he does.
If you understood where I'm coming from then why the above statement? Christians do not define God in any manner, oh many try including yours truly. God is who He is and no matter how we wrongly define him doesn't make him any less than who He is, lovingly perfect without flaw. We can't judge God because our sense of right and wrong isn't complete and perfect, our sense of right and wrong differ from person to person so we have no real standard let lone an absolute standard. Without an absolute standard with all living by it perfectly who would or could be God's judge. You, me, anybody? Jesus put it justly, "he who is without sin cast the first stone (judgment)."
You know it's really nice to be able to have a good conversation here and with you, thank you!
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
