Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

[Godscreated]

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No. That is exactly what Catholics believe. Hence all the sin and absolution stuff. Hence Dante and the different levels of Hell corresponding to the sins, different levels of Heaven corresponding to the cardinal virtues , and Purgatory is where people go to be purged of their sin in order to be clean enough to enter heaven. Catholics believe people are saved through works.

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You're correct, that is what the Catholic Church promotes, I do not believe all Catholics believe what the Catholic Church sells, at least some of the Catholics I know do not buy into all the things the church sells.

Right. And the Protestant church sells salvation by faith alone. It all depends what you are in the market for. Either way salvation is an appeal to selfishness and seeking the reward of heaven and avoiding the punishments of hell. You bought faith others bought works. Neither have any ultimate truth and are just alternate interpretations of the same mythology.

You can be in the market for many things and by into it, this does not mean you haven't bought a forgery. The scriptures are clear that salvation comes by grace from God, meaning salvation is an unmerited gift, which by definition means one can not earn ie. work for their salvation. If one has to work for salvation then faith is dead, simple really. The Protestant Church does not sell salvation, selling means works and works denies faith, not selling, teaching the truth of scripture. Works are to accompany faith after salvation, salvation first then works in faith, simple really.

So how much did you pay for your version? Seems a lot cheaper. In Catholocism one is actually expected to do something. The Protestant version's focus is simply on "right belief" and the acceptance of the sacrifice of jesus for their sins. SO I would say you got the bargain. Both are certainly defective products but hey at least yours didn't cost you an arm and a leg!

Haha. Everybody can cite scripture to prove whatever it is they want to prove. You just picked Luther's cult as opposed to the Papal cult.

No, I chose Biblical truth, and you are some what right, my salvation was a gift from God, as scripture says. Please show me scriptures that say works is the way to salvation, I've defended against this before, hope to see some scriptures that are different, gets boring repeating the same things.

[houseofcantor]

No. The value of sola fides is in the lack of anticipation of rewards or punishments.

[mediamogul]

You're correct, that is what the Catholic Church promotes, I do not believe all Catholics believe what the Catholic Church sells, at least some of the Catholics I know do not buy into all the things the church sells.

Right. And the Protestant church sells salvation by faith alone. It all depends what you are in the market for. Either way salvation is an appeal to selfishness and seeking the reward of heaven and avoiding the punishments of hell. You bought faith others bought works. Neither have any ultimate truth and are just alternate interpretations of the same mythology.

You can be in the market for many things and by into it, this does not mean you haven't bought a forgery. The scriptures are clear that salvation comes by grace from God, meaning salvation is an unmerited gift, which by definition means one can not earn ie. work for their salvation. If one has to work for salvation then faith is dead, simple really. The Protestant Church does not sell salvation, selling means works and works denies faith, not selling, teaching the truth of scripture. Works are to accompany faith after salvation, salvation first then works in faith, simple really.

So how much did you pay for your version? Seems a lot cheaper. In Catholocism one is actually expected to do something. The Protestant version's focus is simply on "right belief" and the acceptance of the sacrifice of jesus for their sins. SO I would say you got the bargain. Both are certainly defective products but hey at least yours didn't cost you an arm and a leg!

Haha. Everybody can cite scripture to prove whatever it is they want to prove. You just picked Luther's cult as opposed to the Papal cult.

No, I chose Biblical truth, and you are some what right, my salvation was a gift from God, as scripture says. Please show me scriptures that say works is the way to salvation, I've defended against this before, hope to see some scriptures that are different, gets boring repeating the same things.

GC lets be honest. You are going to believe what you are going to believe regardless of what i say to you. This is the part where you feign open mindedness and then proceed to restate your beliefs. I don't feel as though a fundamentalist such as yourself is really here for discussion. It's more of a mission.

Also if we want to get really nitpicky about it Catholics state that we are saved through both "the grace of god" and works theirein. One can fall out of favor with god through sin and needs to be reconciled through an intermediary. Enter the church. This move essentially secured the Catholic church as one of the most powerful institutions of the last 1500 years. Convince someone that you hold the key to their salvation and then keep them knee deep in sin so they have to continuously rely upon you to not fall out of favor with god and there you have it recipe for power and wealth. Pretty brilliant and worked like a charm.

[Godscreated]

GC lets be honest. You are going to believe what you are going to believe regardless of what i say to you. This is the part where you feign open mindedness and then proceed to restate your beliefs. I don't feel as though a fundamentalist such as yourself is really here for discussion. It's more of a mission.

Also if we want to get really nitpicky about it Catholics state that we are saved through both "the grace of god" and works theirein. One can fall out of favor with god through sin and needs to be reconciled through an intermediary. Enter the church. This move essentially secured the Catholic church as one of the most powerful institutions of the last 1500 years. Convince someone that you hold the key to their salvation and then keep them knee deep in sin so they have to continuously rely upon you to not fall out of favor with god and there you have it recipe for power and wealth. Pretty brilliant and worked like a charm.

I have no mission here, to have a mission I would need goals and I haven't set any, other than to learn.
Again I say that salvation comes through the Grace of God which is unmerited. It seems to me that you want to make an issue of this and I have asked you to back up your statements with verses from scripture, if you do not then why bother saying anything, unless you're trying to mess around with Christians just to entertain yourself.

[Drich]

Are faith, God and love without deeds, dead?

Paul took the position that salvation could be gained on faith alone. James took the position that faith without works and deeds is dead. Even if one had faith, like demons and Satan must, without works they were still going to hell.

Most have landed with James who said that faith without deeds and works was dead. This may be due to Jesus who said that we would recognize his people by their works.

Love, it would seem to me, has the same characteristic as faith. Love without works and deeds is dead. Be it love for a spouse, our children, parents or friends or even God, if we did not do works and deeds, they could not know that we love them. At the very least, we would have to tell them we love them and that falls into works and deeds.

Many believers tell me that God is love or loves us all. They always point to deeds and works that fall in the range of un-provable miracles. Most of these miracles are in the ancient past. Creation and what not. Some take it to the present and I have been told often that God can do whatever he wants with us because he made us. I discard this out of hand because I believe that if that were true, God would not also create all those things that kill us and cause us to suffer. That is not a loving act.

Love, human to human, must have ongoing deeds and works to be alive. Without these, love is dead.

Love, God to human, must also have ongoing works and deeds. If God is alive, he must and would express his love with viable and recognizable actions.

If we cannot see these acts on God’s part --- and you agree that love must be expressed somehow with works and deeds, ----does that mean that God does not love or that he is dead?

Regards
DL

I starting to see a reoccurring theme with you guys. "God doesn't love us the way we think he should therefore God can not exist."

What if for some reason you all have misunderstood the concept of "love?" What if you misunderstand the conditions of God's love? What if you misunderstand the concept that "God is love" above all else?

If you and God are not working on the same definition of "love" then how can God be expected to meet your understanding? Did you know in the Koine Greek (The original language in which the "God is Love" principle was first recorded) there are 4 very distinct words, with different meanings that in the English all translate into the word "Love?" Perhaps you should define "love," to see if you and God are even talking about the same thing.

Do you love unconditionally? or does your love have limits? What if the object of your love literally cut your throat and watched you bled out rather than sought help? where would you love be then? If you have the ability to discern who you are and are not going to love, and also put conditions on that love then why would you put a limitation on God's ability to do the same?

The bible does say "God is Love." What It does not say is our idea of Love, is God's defining Characteristic. What is Identified as His defining characteristic is what He calls Righteousness. This righteousness has Him Flood the World, Kill women and Children, Have His people conquered and enslaved and ultimately has His own Son beaten and nailed to a cross. To say "God is Love above all else, is to over look some major defining events of the bible.

God's leading attribute is not "love" but Righteousness.

Now to answer concern of the Opening Statement. God's love is made manifest in the works and deeds of those who love Him. You seem to have over looked all of what Christian Charities, and people have done for this world. Christians do not give of themselves. Christians give to God out of Love. God in turn Gives what was Given back to those who need it. Love(the biblical kind and not the obscure undefined kind) and Works do Go hand in Hand. You just need to know where and how to look.

[houseofcantor]

You buttheads. Ya cannot even be Christian without sola fides. Donchu read no Romans?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Raping is not cool

This has to be the grossest and most disturbing understatement I have ever read.

Gross? Nah,just silly and insensitive. If that is the worst understatement you have read, your really need to do a LOT more reading.


As understatements go,it's glib and fatuous, exactly on par with the usual intellectual standard of the poster and his fellow travelers

[Welsh cake]

I have no mission here, to have a mission I would need goals and I haven't set any, other than to learn.

The point mediamogul was making that you proceeded to ignore and dismiss the rest as some kind of 'ad hominem' against Christians was you're not here to learn.

What have you 'learned' exactly? Apart from seeking to confirm your presumptions about atheists in general.

Let's cut the crap. You're here to strengthen your faith and your beliefs in sky daddy. Nothing more. That's why talking to you on most days is so, *sigh*, mind-numbingly bloody tedious. You make magic man sound so damn boring you've nearly converted me to apatheism where I no longer even care what you believe any more.

Quite frankly I don't even care if you have enough intellectual honesty and integrity to admit that. The least you can do is stop insulting our intelligence with that baseless and patronising assertion "I only want to learn!" over and over again. Knock it off already. >_>

I starting to see a reoccurring theme with you guys. "God doesn't love us the way we think he should therefore God can not exist."

Obviously not the god you're claiming exists. If you argue there's an omni-benevolent god and we submit to you a reality that demonstrably counters it completely, then clearly you have one heck of a refutation to overcome.

What if for some reason you all have misunderstood the concept of "love?" What if you misunderstand the conditions of God's love? What if you misunderstand the concept that "God is love" above all else?

What if Hell is real and we'll ponder that semantics question while we're being tortured for all eternity?

If you and God are not working on the same definition of "love" then how can God be expected to meet your understanding?

I guess God, being the all-powerful creator of all reality and causality, is clearly under-qualified for the task you propose.

Perhaps you should define "love," to see if you and God are even talking about the same thing.

You first since you're claiming there's a God whose 'love' we don't understand.

Do you love unconditionally? or does your love have limits?

No. Love has conditions I'm afraid. It has limits.

If you have the ability to discern who you are and are not going to love, and also put conditions on that love then why would you put a limitation on God's ability to do the same?

So what is "God who is love" when he doesn't love someone?

The bible does say "God is Love."

The writer must have been high that day. The Bible says a lot of things friend. Books usually do.

What is Identified as His defining characteristic is what He calls Righteousness. This righteousness has Him Flood the World, Kill women and Children, Have His people conquered and enslaved and ultimately has His own Son beaten and nailed to a cross.

Righteousness isn't love. Your god may have a love for "justice" and smiting others, but that isn't love. Even you should be able to appreciate the difference.

God's leading attribute is not "love" but Righteousness.

Is your god concept omni-benevolent, as in all-loving, or not?

God's love is made manifest in the works and deeds of those who love Him.

At least we can both agree unconditional love is nonsense then.

You seem to have over looked all of what Christian Charities, and people have done for this world.

You seem to have overlooked all of what the secular non-religious Charities, and people have done for this world.

Christians do not give of themselves. Christians give to God out of Love.

Yes because you love to love God and want him to reciprocate that feeling. Love is intrinsically selfish like that mate.

[mediamogul]

I have no mission here, to have a mission I would need goals and I haven't set any, other than to learn.

The point mediamogul was making that you proceeded to ignore and dismiss the rest as some kind of 'ad hominem' against Christians was you're not here to learn.

What have you 'learned' exactly? Apart from seeking to confirm your presumptions about atheists in general.

Let's cut the crap. You're here to strengthen your faith and your beliefs in sky daddy. Nothing more. That's why talking to you on most days is so, *sigh*, mind-numbingly bloody tedious. You make magic man sound so damn boring you've nearly converted me to apatheism where I no longer even care what you believe any more.

Quite frankly I don't even care if you have enough intellectual honesty and integrity to admit that. The least you can do is stop insulting our intelligence with that baseless and patronising assertion "I only want to learn!" over and over again. Knock it off already. >_>

Yes Welsh that's exactly what I'm saying. You have shown clearly that you are not here to learn but to defend at all costs your interpretation of religion, scripture, god, etc... Evidence of this is how you poisoned the well before you asked for scripture quotes "Please show me scriptures that say works is the way to salvation, I've defended against this before, hope to see some scriptures that are different, gets boring repeating the same things." You don't actually want to have a discussion, you just want to practice defending your beliefs agains new quotes thrown at you.

So you want to "learn"? Exactly what do you want to learn? Why does someone who argues the same circular logic over and over and never concedes even a SINGLE point come to an atheist forum? There are other theists on this forum who are able and willing to discuss with a certain amount of intellectual honesty and integrity. Conceding when logic does not back their point and at least admitting that they have some rethinking to do. This fundamentalist style of belief that you maintain is the most dangerous style of belief. Read the Voltaire quote in my signature. So if you want to discuss, great, but my point is that I doubt you want to discuss or even learn. Someone who just wanted to learn wouldn't do so much arguing with the other side and getting upset when their logic is disproven. Welsh is exactly right, you are here to practice your arguments. That's it. Have some honesty and admit it.

[Godscreated]

I have no mission here, to have a mission I would need goals and I haven't set any, other than to learn.

The point mediamogul was making that you proceeded to ignore and dismiss the rest as some kind of 'ad hominem' against Christians was you're not here to learn.

What have you 'learned' exactly? Apart from seeking to confirm your presumptions about atheists in general.

Let's cut the crap. You're here to strengthen your faith and your beliefs in sky daddy. Nothing more. That's why talking to you on most days is so, *sigh*, mind-numbingly bloody tedious. You make magic man sound so damn boring you've nearly converted me to apatheism where I no longer even care what you believe any more.

Quite frankly I don't even care if you have enough intellectual honesty and integrity to admit that. The least you can do is stop insulting our intelligence with that baseless and patronising assertion "I only want to learn!" over and over again. Knock it off already. >_>

Yes Welsh that's exactly what I'm saying. You have shown clearly that you are not here to learn but to defend at all costs your interpretation of religion, scripture, god, etc... Evidence of this is how you poisoned the well before you asked for scripture quotes "Please show me scriptures that say works is the way to salvation, I've defended against this before, hope to see some scriptures that are different, gets boring repeating the same things." You don't actually want to have a discussion, you just want to practice defending your beliefs agains new quotes thrown at you.

So you want to "learn"? Exactly what do you want to learn? Why does someone who argues the same circular logic over and over and never concedes even a SINGLE point come to an atheist forum? There are other theists on this forum who are able and willing to discuss with a certain amount of intellectual honesty and integrity. Conceding when logic does not back their point and at least admitting that they have some rethinking to do. This fundamentalist style of belief that you maintain is the most dangerous style of belief. Read the Voltaire quote in my signature. So if you want to discuss, great, but my point is that I doubt you want to discuss or even learn. Someone who just wanted to learn wouldn't do so much arguing with the other side and getting upset when their logic is disproven. Welsh is exactly right, you are here to practice your arguments. That's it. Have some honesty and admit it.

I'm here to learn, when I'm presented with situations from scripture that make scripture seem to be contradictory I have to read and study to find the answer to problem put before me. If there is someway this is not learning please show me where I'm wrong. Yes I do defend the scriptures when people misinterpret them so grossly. I do not practice argument, I just put out the scriptures to show the truth, if you and others do not want to accept it that's not my fault. I've also learned that some nonbelievers are decent people, while others show they have no respect for anyone who thinks differently than they do, and I mean anyone. I've witnessed nonbelievers argue over the most ridiculous things, putting each other down over petty issues, people should have more respect than that.