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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 4:34 am
(September 4, 2012 at 3:39 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Is this a later...new wine into old wineskins, addition to the Gospel?
As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.” At once they left their nets and followed him.
Mark 1:16-18 (NIV)
Fishers of men?
What men? Jews? Gentiles? Samaritans? Roman tax collectors?
To answer that, we need to understand where 'Mark' copied from to construct this bit of Jesus' life.
Jeremiah 16:16
Behold, I am sending for many fishers, declares the LORD, and they shall catch them. And afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks.
Only one of two places in the OT where this metaphor is used.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 4:43 am
(September 4, 2012 at 3:39 am)Lion IRC Wrote: ...
No. Whats clear is that someone has a wacky theory that Jesus;
* Never in His entire ministry EVER did or said anything which was controversial to Jewish kosher and ritual cleanliness laws.
* Neglected to share His concerns about misguided legalistic Judaism.
* Never intended All Nations to hear the Good News
* And that only late in the piece after He had been Resurrected, did He realise that the Gospel of salvation (which comes from the Jews) might need to be shared OUTSIDE OF JERUSALEM.
Oh, I misread this part. I see what you're trying to say. I don't know why the first two points of that list were brought up. We're not talking about that. We're talking about preaching to gentiles. On the last two points...I don't think Jesus ever said to preach to gentiles.
Quote:Is this a later...new wine into old wineskins, addition to the Gospel?
As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.” At once they left their nets and followed him.
Mark 1:16-18 (NIV)
Fishers of men?
What men? Jews? Gentiles? Samaritans? Roman tax collectors?
More circular reasoning. You're quoting Jesus to prove that Jesus really said that!
My ignore list
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 5:32 am
Atom Wrote:The rationality of disbelieving the evidence on anything you don't want to accept isn't free thinking, it's mindlessness. Christians are accustom to condescension and verbal abuse from atheists, but at some point it would be nice if there were some rationale offered for rejecting the arguments given, instead of a barrage of arrogant declarations.
My rationale for rejecting your arguments is that this whole discussion is purely academic, and I am actually quite confused as to why so much attention and energy is spent on this subject.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 5:38 am
Busy living a good life here 
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 12:02 pm
(This post was last modified: September 4, 2012 at 12:09 pm by Minimalist.)
I see the jesus freaks are still prattling on about what jesus did or didn't do or say without the slightest bit of evidence that these gospels accounts aren't horseshit from the word "go."
How does a human being get so fucked up as to believe that stuff uncritically?
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 12:05 pm
(This post was last modified: September 4, 2012 at 12:06 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's a feature Min, not a bug.
Mommy and daddy say "don't peer over the cliff junior" and we don't. The ones that do are orders of magnitude more likely to fall off same-said cliff. That this useful acceptance of the proclamations of others gets us in hot water some other place is unsurprising. For a "smart system" our standard operating procedures are exceedingly dumb.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 2:41 pm
As I recall Dawkins did a good job of explaining the pluses and minuses of listening to adults who adopt an authoritative tone.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 3:45 pm
(This post was last modified: September 4, 2012 at 3:54 pm by Lion IRC.)
(September 4, 2012 at 4:34 am)FallentoReason Wrote: (September 4, 2012 at 3:39 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Is this a later...new wine into old wineskins, addition to the Gospel?
As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.” At once they left their nets and followed him.
Mark 1:16-18 (NIV)
Fishers of men?
What men? Jews? Gentiles? Samaritans? Roman tax collectors?
To answer that, we need to understand where 'Mark' copied from to construct this bit of Jesus' life.
Jeremiah 16:16
Behold, I am sending for many fishers, declares the LORD, and they shall catch them. And afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks.
Only one of two places in the OT where this metaphor is used.
Isnt it great that "we" already understood that link between the OT prophecy and Jesus.
Thanks for helping to amplify my point.
(September 4, 2012 at 4:43 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: (September 4, 2012 at 3:39 am)Lion IRC Wrote: ...
No. Whats clear is that someone has a wacky theory that Jesus;
* Never in His entire ministry EVER did or said anything which was controversial to Jewish kosher and ritual cleanliness laws.
* Neglected to share His concerns about misguided legalistic Judaism.
* Never intended All Nations to hear the Good News
* And that only late in the piece after He had been Resurrected, did He realise that the Gospel of salvation (which comes from the Jews) might need to be shared OUTSIDE OF JERUSALEM.
Oh, I misread this part. I see what you're trying to say. I don't know why the first two points of that list were brought up. We're not talking about that. We're talking about preaching to gentiles. On the last two points...I don't think Jesus ever said to preach to gentiles.
Quote:Is this a later...new wine into old wineskins, addition to the Gospel?
As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will make you fishers of men.” At once they left their nets and followed him.
Mark 1:16-18 (NIV)
Fishers of men?
What men? Jews? Gentiles? Samaritans? Roman tax collectors?
More circular reasoning. You're quoting Jesus to prove that Jesus really said that!
I'm not quoting Jesus to prove Jesus said it.
Answer the question.
Is this a later...new wine into old wineskins, addition to the Gospel?
Your claim seems to be that the notion of preaching to all nations was controversial to Peter - the fisherman.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 4:00 pm
(This post was last modified: September 4, 2012 at 4:00 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(September 4, 2012 at 3:45 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: ...
I'm not quoting Jesus to prove Jesus said it.
Answer the question.
Is this a later...new wine into old wineskins, addition to the Gospel?
Your claim seems to be that the notion of preaching to all nations was controversial to Peter - the fisherman.
I'd guess so. I can't remember reading anything on it though. The vast majority if not all of what Jesus said in the gospels is likely made up from what I've read.
My ignore list
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 4, 2012 at 6:26 pm
(September 4, 2012 at 3:45 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: (September 4, 2012 at 4:34 am)FallentoReason Wrote: To answer that, we need to understand where 'Mark' copied from to construct this bit of Jesus' life.
Jeremiah 16:16
Behold, I am sending for many fishers, declares the LORD, and they shall catch them. And afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the clefts of the rocks.
Only one of two places in the OT where this metaphor is used.
Isnt it great that "we" already understood that link between the OT prophecy and Jesus.
Thanks for helping to amplify my point.
(September 4, 2012 at 4:43 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Oh, I misread this part. I see what you're trying to say. I don't know why the first two points of that list were brought up. We're not talking about that. We're talking about preaching to gentiles. On the last two points...I don't think Jesus ever said to preach to gentiles.
More circular reasoning. You're quoting Jesus to prove that Jesus really said that!
I'm not quoting Jesus to prove Jesus said it.
Answer the question.
Is this a later...new wine into old wineskins, addition to the Gospel?
Your claim seems to be that the notion of preaching to all nations was controversial to Peter - the fisherman.
I entirely agree with teaearlgreyhot. Jesus was only interested in preaching to the Jews. Christianity was meant to be a parochial religion, a Jewish sect that looked forward to the second coming of Jesus to free Israel of Roman rule. All Christians know this in our hearts. It's just that some of us suppress it and pretend to ourselves that Jesus meant to preach to the Gentiles which is totally bunkum.
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