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**The Grand Nudger** · (This post was last modified: July 30, 2012 at 9:45 am by The Grand Nudger.)

That you felt the need to respond to criticisms of your platitude with a repetition of that platitude is unsurprising. I could just copy paste my previous post at this point and it would follow your response as aptly now as it did then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platitude
A platitude is a trite, meaningless, biased, or prosaic statement, often presented as if it were significant and original.

Repeating your belief that all leads to god does not give this statement any additional meaning, no matter how many times you repeat it. You must flesh it out, do not tell us that you did reason, or do reason, demonstrate that reason. Do not assert that nothing else fits, or that all things fit with god, demonstrate that this is so.

-or-

repeat your platitude ad naus, as you (and honestly everyone I've seen perform this particular song and dance) have already shown a preference for this over the former.

Whether or not you, or even T Aquinas believe that there is substance to this statement is irrelevant as to whether or not it is a platitude, and, case in point, platitudes are almost always used as conversational shorthand because they are believed to be invested with meaning -even when they are not-. Again, you seem to be conflating what "works for you" with "what works". Others do not find this godless existence as troubling or confusing as you seem to find it.

Reforged · (This post was last modified: July 30, 2012 at 9:39 am by Reforged.)

(July 30, 2012 at 8:07 am)fr0d0 Wrote: No shit indeed Rhythm. Given God, reasoning back to God follows. Same with given Not God.

No I don't mean to say that I think about God when I come across something positive. I already attribute creation of the world as a positive that came from God. Everything fits this model, where I don't see that it fits any other model.

If an atheist position was to similarly assume a positive cause, then it would be the same. Personallly the positive cause argument is the only one that computes for me. Other arguments: no cause, constant existance, do not.

This is my understanding of God, and it is pretty thoroughly defined in the Summa Theologica by Thomas Aquinas. So for you to refer to the point as an empty plattitude would be incorrect. It's actually based upon specific reasoning.

Yeah, obvious glitch here.
"I already attribute creation of the world as a positive that came from God. Everything fits this model, where I don't see that it fits any other model. "
This view is based on an argument for the metaphysical, faith and the Bible.
Keeping in mind the metaphysical is firmly in the realm of theory, faith is basically believing strongly without evidence and the Bible has as much backing as any childs storybook.

It shocks me you would admit that your entire world view hinges on "the only one that computes for me".
Its practically a confession that you just can't picture any other way. This could be for many reasons; you were raised into your religion and it is a constant in your life, it is the only way you have given any serious thought to, comfort, you don't want to consider other possibilities believing yours to be the one thats best for you, it gives you comfort to think you will see lost loved ones, it frightens you that if you rejected it and its true you would burn in hell, most of your friends and family will likely be of a similar belief, its nice to feel certainty, its easier for you to just accept it, etc etc.

My guess is its down to one or more of these reasons. The fact you're even aware that it is "the only one that computes for me" suggests its self-imposed. That you can't imagine any other possible way because you won't allow yourself to.

Thats my theory anyway.

~~fr0d0~~ · July 30, 2012 at 4:22 pm

If you'd read my recent posts Raph, you'd have a thorough description of what constitutes faith for me.

Sorry to disappoint on your second point too. I grew up as a child of atheists with atheist extended family and friends. I had no concept of faith at all when I started looking into it as an adult.
I have thought long and hard over many ideas. Therefore my conclusion isn't lightly reached. I know of very many answers, which let's me assert with some confidence what I do.
What considerations lead you to conclude what you do? What alternative would you suggest and why?

Reforged · (This post was last modified: July 30, 2012 at 4:46 pm by Reforged.)

(July 30, 2012 at 4:22 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: If you'd read my recent posts Raph, you'd have a thorough description of what constitutes faith for me.

Sorry to disappoint on your second point too. I grew up as a child of atheists with atheist extended family and friends. I had no concept of faith at all when I started looking into it as an adult.
I have thought long and hard over many ideas. Therefore my conclusion isn't lightly reached. I know of very many answers, which let's me assert with some confidence what I do.
What considerations lead you to conclude what you do? What alternative would you suggest and why?

Oh I read your description of faith. Its wrong.
faith/fāTH/
Noun:
Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

I find most people who say they were born atheist and converted hadn't done any research prior to their conversion which is why they were so easy to target and convince.

I was born into religion receiving cherry picked quotes and hymns from age nought and I bought it.
That is until I did something most don't;
I read the Bible cover to cover... and it made me laugh. It was bitter laughter at how stupid, how ignorant, how unquestioning and how barbaric this book actually was and how I had been convinced otherwise. It was so ridiculous it was comical. Then I did some research into other religions and I found they made me laugh too.
We have alot of facts at our disposal and alot of them conflict with what religion has taught and continues to teach. We have alot of questions not yet answered but I am confident that if they are answered it won't be by those who claim not to need proof. It will be by those brave enough to seek out the proof and seek out the answers rather than clutch to the comfort brought by an outdated system of beliefs.

~~fr0d0~~ · July 30, 2012 at 5:39 pm

(July 30, 2012 at 4:42 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I read your description of faith. Its wrong.

lmao

Of course you must know better than me.

ROFLOL

(July 30, 2012 at 4:42 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I find most people who say they were born atheist and converted hadn't done any research prior to their conversion which is why they were so easy to target and convince.

Not me. I was a serious atheist. I had all of the arguments. Lots more than you, for example lol.

(July 30, 2012 at 4:42 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I was born into religion receiving cherry picked quotes and hymns from age nought and I bought it.
That is until I did something most don't;
I read the Bible cover to cover... and it made me laugh. It was bitter laughter at how stupid, how ignorant, how unquestioning and how barbaric this book actually was and how I had been convinced otherwise. It was so ridiculous it was comical. Then I did some research into other religions and I found they made me laugh too.
We have alot of facts at our disposal and alot of them conflict with what religion has taught and continues to teach. We have alot of questions not yet answered but I am confident that if they are answered it won't be by those who claim not to need proof. It will be by those brave enough to seek out the proof and seek out the answers rather than clutch to the comfort brought by an outdated system of beliefs.

You sir, are still ignorant. You are a sheep with a new shephard. Use your brains and break out of there!

Reforged · (This post was last modified: July 30, 2012 at 6:35 pm by Reforged.)

(July 30, 2012 at 5:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(July 30, 2012 at 4:42 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I read your description of faith. Its wrong.

lmao

Of course you must know better than me.

Yeah, not much of a surprise to me either but that wasn't my definition I presented and you conveniently left out of the quote soooo... yeeeeeah...

(July 30, 2012 at 5:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(July 30, 2012 at 4:42 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I find most people who say they were born atheist and converted hadn't done any research prior to their conversion which is why they were so easy to target and convince.
Not me. I was a serious atheist. I had all of the arguments. Lots more than you, for example lol.

Yeah, judging from the rather groundless arguments you've presented to me so far I'm going to go ahead and call bullshit on this one unless you can present the argument to me that converted you.

(July 30, 2012 at 4:42 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I was born into religion receiving cherry picked quotes and hymns from age nought and I bought it.
That is until I did something most don't;
I read the Bible cover to cover... and it made me laugh. It was bitter laughter at how stupid, how ignorant, how unquestioning and how barbaric this book actually was and how I had been convinced otherwise. It was so ridiculous it was comical. Then I did some research into other religions and I found they made me laugh too.
We have alot of facts at our disposal and alot of them conflict with what religion has taught and continues to teach. We have alot of questions not yet answered but I am confident that if they are answered it won't be by those who claim not to need proof. It will be by those brave enough to seek out the proof and seek out the answers rather than clutch to the comfort brought by an outdated system of beliefs.

(July 30, 2012 at 5:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You sir, are still ignorant. You are a sheep with a new shephard. Use your brains and break out of there!

Oh right? Who was I brainwashed by? Its just I was fairly certain I was the one reading the book as opposed to having someone cherry pick it for me and that I was the one who explored other religions... oh and I was the one who got an education and knowledge and then continued to research and learn off my own bat.
Have you actually bothered to read your Bible cover to cover? I'm going to take a wild guess and say no. The idea of someone who says The Bible is 100% all true would accuse me of being ignorant, would accuse me of being herded?
Well, it makes me laugh. :-)

**The Grand Nudger** · July 30, 2012 at 8:40 pm

The depth or width of the hole you have dug, nor the amount of sweat you left in the same has any effect on whether or not the chunk of rock you found at the bottom was gold or pyrite Frodo.

Epimethean · July 31, 2012 at 10:58 am

"I know of very many answers, which let's me assert with some confidence what I do."

Why do you always go for the cryptic, Fr0d? Why not simply set forth those answers rather than do the hokey pokey? Doing the usual mystery religion shuffle does you no good here. Of course, neither do the supposed answers, since they are all fluff, but if you really have the substance, share it.

**The Grand Nudger** · (This post was last modified: July 31, 2012 at 11:07 am by The Grand Nudger.)

If he did that, what allure would be left to compel you to jump the bull? Clearly it was ramblings, bullshit and platitudes that drew him in. Perhaps he's just trying to reproduce the process?

Reforged · (This post was last modified: July 31, 2012 at 1:20 pm by Reforged.)

(July 30, 2012 at 5:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You sir, are still ignorant. You are a sheep with a new shephard. Use your brains and break out of there!

(July 31, 2012 at 11:05 am)Rhythm Wrote: If he did that, what allure would be left to compel you to jump the bull? Clearly it was ramblings, bullshit and platitudes that drew him in. Perhaps he's just trying to reproduce the process?

Doubtful, he rarely needs an excuse to engage in any of those.

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