How do you make the case for same sex marriage?

[Polaris]

By quoting Scripture.

1 Corinthians 5:12

It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

[Minimalist]

Study Lewis Black.

[Cyberman]

By quoting Scripture.

1 Corinthians 5:2

It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

1 Corinthians 5:2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

Yes, I can definitely see how that would be helpful.

[Puddleglum]

Gays should defintely marry. Why shouldn't they suffer too!

[TaraJo]

Getting close. My primary reason for trying to figure out the real reason people don't want same sex marriage is because when I'm making my case, I want to be making a legitimate case and addressing real issues instead of just knocking down red herrings or straw men. The best I've found is a facebook post from my boyfriend's sister and, well...... ugh. She was raised by Mormon fundamentalists and hasn't bothered to question their beliefs; that should say enough.

There's an outrageously growing hypocrisy in the use of the common word “homophobe”. Seriously, do people hear themselves talk when they throw this word around?

First of all, “homophobe” sounds kind of silly. Being phobic of something means you're afraid of something. I keep imagining a gay guy walking into the room, and the homophobes scream and cower behind a couch. Anyway, I know it's not what the word implies when people use it. A homophobe, by today's definition, is someone who doesn't support homosexuality as a natural, normal, and totally acceptable part of life.

Religion is pretty much the only thing that stands against it, now, and that's only in some cases (Oh, and fascist or controlling governments of course!). Even then, I noticed that full-on gay rights supporters are normally a little defensive, with the feeling that the world is against them. Don't worry about that, gay-right people, you have much more support than you thought.

Plenty of times I've witnessed someone standing up for their beliefs, not bashing gays, but simply stating that they didn't support it. Suddenly, all sorts of people are on their tail, some of them using childish name-calling, and others using a more mature approach and trying to debate with them using logic. In fact, I've seen another case like this today in the comments of an article, which is why I decided to finally throw my two cents into this big rant.

Calling someone a 'bigot', 'homophobe', or an overall 'horrible person' because they put their religious/moral beliefs before what the rest of the mainstream voice of the world is telling them to do is bigoted in itself, isn't it? The person who has a belief system is insulted because they actually follow their belief system! Man, that's almost as bad as calling a gay person names because they believe gay people are capable of loving one another!

Let me try to explain this to the best of my ability. As a Christian, Mormon to be exact, I believe that God intended for romantic love to be between a man and a woman. For one, they were designed differently. Men are normally more 'big picture' focused, do a lot of outside work, more prone to hiding emotions, etc... Women are generally more 'small detail' focused, do work within, more often harness emotions rather than hide them, etc... Basically, they are made to complete each other. Ever hear the phrase “opposites attract”? Men and women were designed to compliment eachother, and learn to love someone different than them, so that together, they would be able to create life. I think that alone hints of who was designed to be with whom.

I won't even pretend that I understand the psychology behind why people become more interested in a same sex over the opposite. Maybe it's a subconscious need to find someone like them, instead of someone too different. Maybe there's a fear that they won't be able to live up to a 'straight' expectation, maybe they desire to find a better version of themselves, so to speak. Maybe someone indulged on too much pornography and they're craving something a little different now. Who even knows! Whatever the reason, I do not believe anyone is born a homosexual. I believe it's a habit that is created for whatever reason because of some conflict within ourselves or from pressures around us.

Why don't we support homosexuality? Because it was not part of God's plan for us. Who is to say that we know better and that we actually understand love better than He who loves all of His children so much that He would sacrifice his beloved Son for us? We were taught to love everyone, and that's what we'll try to do. If a Christian thinks that gay people are some lesser creatures, they're not following the teachings correctly. It's as simple as that. Homosexuals shouldn't feel the need to hide or lash out, and Christians shouldn't feel the need to hate homosexuals. Can't we peacefully get along together and support each other without having to support our bad undesirable habits? After all, everyone comes with their flaws and challanges. There's no use in blowing this one out of proportion.

Bringing back a previous point, calling a Christian who follows their beliefs against homosexuality a bigot, homophobe, or anything of the sort is dumb. Is the Christian supposed to change their belief system for someone just to say they can love them? I wasn't aware that you had to become like someone just to support them. That's like having a friend with a drug addiction and being told that you don't care about your friend until you support his drug addiction. If you don't approve of your friend's drug addiction, well obviously, you're a bigot and a horrible friend. (Haha, silly me, I thought a good friend would stand by his side and try to support him, and not the drug addiction itself!)

As for gay marriage itself, yes, I don't believe a religious marriage between two of the same sex is moral. (Let the flames rage.) I also don't believe in the religious marriage between a man and a woman if they don't love each other (Gold digger weddings, bribery, marriage for status, etc...). Marriage is something that's supposed to last.

I've realized something recently, and that is that there is a difference between a legal marriage and a religious marriage. When homosexuals fight for the right to marry, I was always conflicted on what to believe, but I think I figured things out. If the marriage is about having the same legal benefits as a straight couple, then I don't really care. If gays want the same legal rights as straight couples, then go on ahead! It's none of my business! It's when they require churches to bend over backwards for a religious marriage ceremony that I say 'heck no!'. If marriage is ordained of God, how on Earth do you marry two people who are doing something that God says is wrong? I don't know about you, but history even shows that arguing against God ends badly.

I've had to read an excerpt once for a collage paper on why gay marriage being legalized would make the world a better place. Andrew Sullivan gave all sorts of reasons that looked pretty sugar-coated, frankly, and in some cases, they were just plain insulting.

According to Sullivan, gay children had no constructive future without marriage contracts, and gay marriage will make families stronger for both straight, and gay couples. ...Okay? Oh, he also said that gay children had no roll models. I have 3 words for him. ALBUS. FREAKING. DUMBLEDORE. (He's, like, the guy everyone looks up to, in Harry Potter, and he's darn awesome at that! )

What got to me most was near the end of the excerpt, he uses the reasoning that gay marriage would keep gay couples more loyal to their partners. That, right there, is an insult to love in itself, as well as the couples who he is defending.
Virtually, Andrew Sullivan, you are saying that you need some piece of paper to tell you that you are married to make your life happy and make you loyal to your significant other? You're saying the two individuals cannot genuinely care about each other until they can be legally married? That's just some of the most wishy washy excuses I've seen. How can he use the lack of marriage as an excuse to say the two individuals will be promiscuous and disloyal until they actually can marry? (well obviously, this guy has never heard of an 'affair') Marriage does NOT make a couple loyal to each other. The couple chooses to out of trust and love. Marriage (or religious marriage, at least) is the bonding of souls, acknowledging that you are together in God's eyes.

The nerve of him to say that marriage is necessary for lovers to be loyal to another is just...ahhh! Mister Sullivan, couples, gay or not, are actually able to love eachother without marriage. You don't need to use that silly excuse in your case. It makes no sense, and actually insults the capacity that we all have to love each other.

With that out of the way, let me say what I wish to say most of all.

Please stop calling people who follow their beliefs bigots. Showing no tolerance of someone's Christian belief is actually making you the bigot. Just so you know!

[Minimalist]

Please stop calling people who follow their beliefs bigots.

[TaraJo]

Please stop calling people who follow their beliefs bigots.

I know. It's just the beginning of how I can shred the argument to pieces.

Even though it has little to do with same sex marriage, she objects to the term 'homophobe' because she isn't afraid of homosexuals. Reality is, the prefix 'phobe' means an aversion to. Generally we think of it as a fear thing because modern psychology uses it so much, but if you'e studied simple biological chemistry, you'll understand what a hydrophobic molecule is, and it isn't a molecule that's afraid of water.

She does admit that religion is pretty much the only reason same sex marriage is wrong and I applaud her for that. However, a little basic research on the first amendment and freedom of religion and subsequent separation of church and state should take that out.

She relies a lot on stereotypical gender roles, which are about as bullshit as you can get. There are plenty of guys who like to cook and clean and there are girls who love to work on cars.

She also said "I also don't believe in the religious marriage between a man and a woman if they don't love each other (Gold digger weddings, bribery, marriage for status, etc...)" which leads me to believe she hasn't really read what the Bible says about marriage. Marriage wasn't about love; lust, maybe for the guy, but love was never an issue for marriage up until the past few hundred years. Perhaps the best way to come at this one is to provide some Bible verses that show what is a Biblical marriage that we wouldn't even consider today (multiple wives, incest, rape victims marrying the attacker, brides having to prove her virginity on the wedding night or be killed, POW's being taken as brides, ect.).

She thinks that the government is going to force churches to perform gay marriages. The reality is, she should know better than that; even straight couples can't get married in a Mormon temple unless they have a temple recommend. Yes, churches can currently choose who they will and won't marry and that won't change. In fact, legalizing same sex marriage will give more freedom to churches on that front because while they couldn't legally marry same sex couples before, they will be able to do that afterwards.

I think if I address some of those questions and then state some of the reasons I think it should be legal, I can make a speech out of it.

[Minimalist]

she objects to the term 'homophobe' because she isn't afraid of homosexuals.

Yes, I get it. She simply hates whoever she has been told to hate based on the mormon variant of the big book of holy horseshit.

She's still a bigot.

[Cinjin]

I always thought this quote taken from the movie, "The American President" would make an appetizing point for someone defending this exact issue.

"He is interested in two things and two things only: Making you afraid of it, and telling you who's to blame for it. That ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections. You gather a group of middle age, middle class, middle income voters who remember with longing an easier time, and you talk to them about family and American values and character. Then you wave an old photo of the President's girlfriend and then you scream about patriotism - you tell them, she's to blame for their lot in life, then you go on television and you call her a whore."

It seems to me that the very reason that many states have ratified their constitutions preemptively is because of this statement above. The religious right and the politicians who need their massive vote have vilified gay people. They want to make you afraid of it and tell you that gay people are the blame for why America "isn't what it use to be." I think this fictional speech by Michael Douglass would make an excellent addition to your real speech.

"Keep marriage between a man and a woman! God wants it that way! We're miserable and it's because our god doesn't like our acceptance of gay people! Our country is failing because gay people are getting away with whatever they want!"

It's bull shit. Homosexuals are vilified purely for someone or some groups agenda.





at 30 secs:

[JohnDG]

Well if you want to appeal on an economical standpoint it cuts down on over population, divorce's, forclosures, abortions, and orphans.

If not encouraged to create basic family units of their own it can spread std's at a more rapid rate, not like 1 out of 4 people don't have them though.