North Korea 'executes Christians'

[Anto Kennedy]

Just something relevant to the 'Religion is the cause of all the world's evils' topic.

Human rights groups in South Korea say North Korea has stepped up executions of Christians, some of them in public.

The communist country, the world's most closed society, views religion as a major threat.

Only the founder of the country, Kim Il-sung, and his son, Kim Jong-il, may be worshipped, in mass public displays of fervour.

Such reports are hard to verify, but North Korea is known to be intolerant of religion - it views any form of alternative social organisation as a competitor for its own, religion-like ideology.

BBC News

[Purple Rabbit]

Just something relevant to the 'Religion is the cause of all the world's evils' topic.

Human rights groups in South Korea say North Korea has stepped up executions of Christians, some of them in public.

The communist country, the world's most closed society, views religion as a major threat.

Only the founder of the country, Kim Il-sung, and his son, Kim Jong-il, may be worshipped, in mass public displays of fervour.

Such reports are hard to verify, but North Korea is known to be intolerant of religion - it views any form of alternative social organisation as a competitor for its own, religion-like ideology.

Very relevant indeed. Especially since dictatorship in North Korea has all the traits of a religion in its phase of infancy: worship of a charismatic leader even beyond his death, dogmatic doctrine, that father-and-son thing, denial of other religions, fierce suppresion of critique.

[Edwardo Piet]

I agree. It's basically a 'religion'. A cult religion, and the fact they don't like calling it one (because they don't like 'religion'), doesn't stop it from basically being one does it?

EvF

[Anto Kennedy]

I agree. It's basically a 'religion'. A cult religion, and the fact they don't like calling it one (because they don't like 'religion'), doesn't stop it from basically being one does it?

EvF

I guess that means all sports teams are religions, all political parties are religions, in fact every social organisation is a religion by you're definition.

that father-and-son thing

Don't confuse Nepotism with the doctrine of the Trinity.

worship of a charismatic leader even beyond his death

Michael Jordan, Barack Obama, Michael Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington etc.

Don't confuse the celebration of human accomplishment with worship of a divine being (who doesn't "lead" as you define) I had no idea that God was charismatic, or a leader.

dogmatic doctrine

One man's dogma is another man's......well you know what I'm getting at. Again, this could apply to anything, and if that's the case then anything can be a religion as you define it.

denial of other religions, fierce suppresion of critique.

Sounds like Atheism to me.

From what I can recall, Jesus said "If they are not against us, they are for us" in reference to a rival holy man who the disciples thought was a false prophet, Jesus rebuked them thereby stating once and for all; that he isn't the only source of salvation.

By the way, good luck criticizing your boss at work or a police officer, and see how fiercely you get suppressed.

[Purple Rabbit]

that father-and-son thing

Don't confuse Nepotism with the doctrine of the Trinity.

Nepotism is about granting privileges to living relatives. Religious dogma is a formalized set of assertions not to be questioned. The former does not exclude the latter. In fact Kim il_sung has shown that they can enhance each other greatly.

Kim-il-sung constructed his own deification and has been able to transfer his deistic status partly onto his son. He established a cult of personality for himself that pervades North Korean state ideology (Juche). North Koreans frequently ascribe "supernatural" qualities to the late leader and worship of him is thought at school (see here for a report from a christian source). He is designated in the constitution as the country’s "Eternal President". North Korean defectors have been quoted as saying that North Korean schools deify both father and son.

worship of a charismatic leader even beyond his death

Michael Jordan, Barack Obama, Michael Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington etc.

Is Obama dead already? Missed that one. And yes, some of us confide in deification of their heroes. In fact it is very human to follow others who claim power in some area. You can see how easily that human weak spot can derail into blindness for critique and dogma.

Don't confuse the celebration of human accomplishment with worship of a divine being (who doesn't "lead" as you define) I had no idea that God was charismatic, or a leader.

If he is not your spiritual leader than whose rules are you following? The pope's?

dogmatic doctrine

One man's dogma is another man's......well you know what I'm getting at. Again, this could apply to anything, and if that's the case then anything can be a religion as you define it.

Sure, do something about it. Fight dogmatism.

denial of other religions, fierce suppresion of critique.

Sounds like Atheism to me.

Atheism, as strange as that may be to you, does not deny religions. In fact, atheists are generally very aware of religions and their influence and are very eager to debate the subject. As you can see on this forum it thrives on critique. But you are right to say that even an atheistic position can be part of a dogmatic system. You cannot turn that around however by saying that atheism itself signals dogmatism. Atheism is not an organized coherent movement but a position on theism. Atheism does not constitute by itself a political system or an institutionalized belief.

From what I can recall, Jesus said "If they are not against us, they are for us" in reference to a rival holy man who the disciples thought was a false prophet, Jesus rebuked them thereby stating once and for all; that he isn't the only source of salvation.

Well very nice. So what? The former US president, known for his devotion to christianity after a youth of frivolity, said "if you are not with us, you are against us" to lead us into war. So people say daft things all the time. What's your argument?

By the way, good luck criticizing your boss at work or a police officer, and see how fiercely you get suppressed.

Thank you.

[Edwardo Piet]

I guess that means all sports teams are religions, all political parties are religions, in fact every social organisation is a religion by you're definition.

I think they'd also have to hold beliefs without evidence though. . . and also - where exactly do you draw the line between 'religion' and 'non-religion'?

How do you define it?

What I mean is, it may not be thought of as a religion. . . but if it's basically one in the sense it holds beliefs without evidence and is religious as in it has a certain degree of zealous 'religiosity', then it's basically a religion in every sense whether it's called one or not. . . because belief in God isn't even a requirement because there are religions without belief in God.

EvF

[Anto Kennedy]

is religious as in it has a certain degree of zealous 'religiosity'

WTF?

Something is religious because it has religiousity?

What the hell's religiousity then?

If you want a definition of religion, you don't have to look far. Religion is spirituality. As such it may involve worship, dogma, denial of other religions or none of the above.

The Bahai' faith doesn't deny other religions or have a set doctrine, but it does rest upon thr worship of the Creator.
Cerrtain Buddhist schools have no set doctrine (Zen), doesn't worship the Creator but may deny other religions.
A madman ascetic living in the mountains doesn't fit any of the hallmarks of religion as put forward by pruple rabbit, so is a atheist communist dictator more religious than the ascetic?

All I've read on this thread are the same worn out Eurocentric steoreotypes

but if it's basically one in the sense it holds beliefs without evidence

What? Atheism? The belief that religion is an obstacle to world peace and the realisation of human potential. Which has no evidence whatsoever that the Creator doesn't exist? Yet which fervently believes so with "a certain degree of zealous 'religiosity'"

[Edwardo Piet]

What? Atheism? The belief that religion is an obstacle to world peace and the realisation of human potential. Which has no evidence whatsoever that the Creator doesn't exist? Yet which fervently believes so with "a certain degree of zealous 'religiosity'"

That's not atheism. Atheism is one absence of a belief, it's not a belief system, it doesn't even contain one belief. Atheism is the absence of a belief in God, nothing more, nothing less.

EvF

[Anto Kennedy]

Atheism is the absence of a belief in God

With no evidence whatsoever that this is true.

Don't add the "a" in there either, with the "a" it's agnosticism, an undecided, neutral position. Without the "a" it's atheism, a position without any basis in fact.

[Rhizomorph13]

Auto Kennedy,

How can you prove that something does not exist?

Oh, noes not another thread about the definitions of agnostic and atheist. I think Adrian and Arcanus summed those up nicely in the "why agnostic" thread.

Rhizo