Atheist Amazonian tribe.

[John V]

That they're not atheists. Non-worshiping /= atheist.

Yeah it is.

A person who believes in a god but doesn't worship it is not an atheist.

The Shinto are considered Atheists, they believe in spirits. The Buddhists believe in reincarnation, some Buddhists believe in spirits. They are considered Atheists.

Do either of these groups believe in spirit beings that live above the clouds and sometimes come down and give commands to humans? If not, we're talking apples and oranges.

You are confusing Western Naturalism with literal Atheism.

No I'm not. As you note, a person could believe in reincarnation, but not in any god. Such person would be an atheist, but not a naturalist. The issue isn't that I don't understand the difference. The issue is that these people are neither atheists nor naturalists.

[CapnAwesome]

Do either of these groups believe in spirit beings that live above the clouds and sometimes come down and give commands to humans? If not, we're talking apples and oranges.

Are you really saying the clouds are the important factor there, but worship isn't an important factor? Spirits on the ground are just spirits but the moment they are in the clouds they are Gods?

I've met some silly nitpickers in my life, but this has to be the silliest.

Edit: I'm also going to assume that Dr. Everett, who lived amongst them for years, has a slightly better grasp on their beliefs then you do.

[John V]

Are you really saying the clouds are the important factor there, but worship isn't an important factor? Spirits on the ground are just spirits but the moment they are in the clouds they are Gods?

Don't play dumb. I'm saying that living above the clouds is a factor, not the factor. That the spirit tells humans what to do or not do, and threatens to kill them if they don't obey, are also factors.

[CapnAwesome]

Don't play dumb. I'm saying that living above the clouds is a factor, not the factor. That the spirit tells humans what to do or not do, and threatens to kill them if they don't obey, are also factors.

I think it's pretty obvious that you are just making your definition of a God to fit your argument, not the other way around.

[Christian]

This is the reason our Lord's workers need to be more aggressive towards their mission to spread the Lord's work in all corners of the world.

[jonb]

This is the reason our Lord's workers need to be more aggressive towards their mission to spread the Lord's work in all corners of the world.

Our Lord, I don't think so.

[Esquilax]

Don't play dumb. I'm saying that living above the clouds is a factor, not the factor. That the spirit tells humans what to do or not do, and threatens to kill them if they don't obey, are also factors.

So it's the commands and threats that make them gods? Because I can do that too, but I'm not a god.

Or is it that, plus the clouds that make them gods? If so, are people who make threats on planes gods? Is there a cut off point, in terms of height? At what elevation is divinity conferred?

[Creed of Heresy]

This is the reason our Lord's workers need to be more aggressive towards their mission to spread the Lord's work in all corners of the world.

Our lord?

...Who, the people I pay my rent to??

[John V]

I think it's pretty obvious that you are just making your definition of a God to fit your argument, not the other way around.

I think it's pretty obvious that you are just denying a generally accepted concept to defend your argument. Go figure.

Two more issues came to mind regarding this tribe.

1. The xigagai account is evidence of the supernatural. THere's a group of people, otherwise known to be sane and down-to-earth, not prone to religion, who only believe in what they've seen themselves or heard first-hand from an eyewitness, and they see and hear this spirit in daylight while it's not seen or heard by another group of observers.

2. These people are amazingly simple in terms of language and culture. They have very few sounds in their language, and even no words for colors. They have no interest in constructing things like boats. They have no oral history. Is this what we would expect to find considering current thought on human migration? They could be explained as ancient and isolated if found in Africa, but South America is supposedly the last place humans reached. Were there only a few sounds, no words for colors, and no oral histories at the time people reached South America? Or, did these people devolve, actually losing such things?

[Esquilax]

1. The xigagai account is evidence of the supernatural. THere's a group of people, otherwise known to be sane and down-to-earth, not prone to religion, who only believe in what they've seen themselves or heard first-hand from an eyewitness, and they see and hear this spirit in daylight while it's not seen or heard by another group of observers.

Noooooooooooooo...

All that is evidence of is that the human mind is just as fallible and susceptible to hallucination whether it has a religious concept in it or not. Religion may thrive in that susceptibility and convince people of things despite their rational impulses, but the weakness itself is a universal thing.

2. These people are amazingly simple in terms of language and culture. They have very few sounds in their language, and even no words for colors. They have no interest in constructing things like boats. They have no oral history. Is this what we would expect to find considering current thought on human migration? They could be explained as ancient and isolated if found in Africa, but South America is supposedly the last place humans reached. Were there only a few sounds, no words for colors, and no oral histories at the time people reached South America? Or, did these people devolve, actually losing such things?

It's probably their relative isolation acting as an echo chamber. Like a culture wide version of chinese whispers: over time their language mutated and changed, as all languages are wont to do, only shrinking in this case, and without cross pollination from other cultures there was no outside information and linguistic forms coming in.