Pedophilia; I can't accept it.

[Mystical]

I hate the whole "they didn't know better, it was different times different culture" argument anyways. Marrying for namesake/inheritance maybe. But marrying a child is wrong no matter what age we are in because children don't really have a fluctuating standard by which to guage whether they're capable and ready for sex; they aren't. Period. Defiling a child sexually is one of the most evil things you can do as a human, no less. So next time you see a movie with a little kid, put yourself in the shoes of the guys marrying or abusing the most innocent beings one can come across other than a puppy. In any language any religion any culture any time period, its always been wrong.
.

[Aractus]

This is one of the first sources I came across. > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...313AAc2kUl

Well that's not a source. It's just one uninformed opinion after another.

You say that the ages of the holy couple are stated nowhere, however you insist on the notion that they were only 1-3 years apart ?

Incorrect. I even emphasised the point that it is "most likely".

How do you make that claim without showing me evidence first ? You might go browsing for an article somewhere where they argue the ages of the holy couple, however there are arguments about it everywhere from people just like you who believe that they were either 1-3 years apart or 10-30 years apart.

The Romans considered most other people around them to be barbaric primitives, you know. The Jews themselves were considered primitive by the Romans - it's in fact an early form of antisemitism. But that aside, Romans were marrying at the same ages as the Jews, and so was everyone else. You keep refusing to admit the fact that there is nothing unique or specific about it to religion. I don't understand how, or why, you should point at a minority group who is doing nothing out of the ordinary in this area. We're not talking about Islam in the 21st century - that is very different.

I don't think you get my issue, once again my issue is; Some sicko's in Religion think it's okay to have a sexual relationship with A CHILD ! I'm sure I don't need to remind a intellect such as yourself that it's, ehm, wrong ? All I am saying is, Joseph might of been a pervert. Arguable not a conscious one because in that time, indeed they didn't know any better, and neither did any of them in that time.

Yeah, it's real perverted to have an (average) 18 month betrothal before the marriage.

However 2000 years later (in today's world) a person is sick to think that it's okay for a grown man to marry/bed a child in the name of....whichever deity.

I do not understand why you insist on posting this uninformed nonsense. Again: it wasn't unique to religion.

Joseph Smith; Married a 14 year old whilst having other wives, too. And he was in his 30's.

Correct, and as I understand it - polygamy aside - it wasn't that unusual for men in their 30's to marry teenage girls at that time. So what?

The Prophet Muhammad; Married a 9 year old girl.

Yes, Muhammad is a paedophile, that you are allowed to say, you have my permission.

Jewish Community; Had a ritual of sucking off a baby's penis and spitting out the flesh, aka most likely and old way of circumcision which is now abolished I guess or which was abandoned because it wasn't hygienic. I wonder how many baby's they went through to figure that one out.

I have no idea what you're on about. All it sounds like to me is uninformed antisemitic garbage.

FGM in the name of... : Mutilating a little girls organs to sustain her natural sexual needs later on.

That has nothing to do with the topic of paedophilia, it's just another example of the horrors that Islam - the religion of peace - has brought to the world.

I agree that the title of the topic has little to do with what is said here, however, what about all those trusted Catholics, men of God who defiled little boys and has now been a mainstream joke for many years?

Dude, in some places the rate at which children are molested is higher than 90%. Given the size of the RCC it is inevitable that they will have to deal with child abuse occurring. What is not tolerable, what I find disturbing, and the problem with the RCC is their policy was to protect the image of the church - and that meant keeping these matters private, secret, and away from law enforcement. It meant that molesters were allowed to continue their activities, it meant that victims were neglected. I'm on the record on this, I have no love for the RCC and especially not for their track record in how they handled child sexual abuse.

You can argue all you want about scriptures, history and make attempts to school me however you cannot deny the fact that various religions have done equally detestable things as any psychopath you've ever heard of. A psychopath has no remorse and finds great pleasure in hurting people, but a religious person? Is sane and conscious of their actions and what do they do it for? To worship a deity of their choice, because it is the will of the big man in the sky.

You can not be more wrong when it comes to the topic of paedophilia.

You hold it up as if it's something that religion created - this is nonsense.

I'll change the title of the topic to; ''Religion's abuse to children; Intolerable.'' [moderator ?] That would indeed be a much more fitting title. And this, you will not be able to deny.

The only religion you can level that claim against, is Islam. And I think you know that.

[Arellius]

Your only issue seems to be with Islam, and the only time you admit something is with Muhammad, makes me wonder...
I consider myself an anti theist in the making, so I address all Religions. But you, however seem to only attack Islam, actually kinda typical. And I'm starting to believe you are the kind of closed minded type of; man of faith. So your God is the best and you will now go to heaven for defending him on the internet, eeeehm, great.

it wasn't that unusual for men in their 30's to marry teenage girls at that time. So what?

You say; so what !? A true child molester could think the same thing - So what, it was done back then and by Joseph Smith, I can do it too.
This is exactly my point, and still you....don't...get...my....issue. Of course Religion didn't invent these horrors, however does practice them in the name of...a deity of some sort which makes them severely deluded.

All it sounds like to me is uninformed antisemitic garbage.

I am so glad you said 'uniformed'. Because I got that little piece of info from Christopher Hitchens' book. I'm almost sure you will make a lousy attempt to bash and discredit him, however, I will just smile when you do and let you swim happily in your pool of ignorance. That is only if...

What is not tolerable, what I find disturbing, and the problem with the RCC is their policy was to protect the image of the church - and that meant keeping these matters private, secret, and away from law enforcement. It meant that molesters were allowed to continue their activities, it meant that victims were neglected. I'm on the record on this, I have no love for the RCC and especially not for their track record in how they handled child sexual abuse.

All, in the name of...... ??? Whom was their guide...?? Ah yes, their decisions came from heaven I guess.

The only religion you can level that claim against, is Islam. And I think you know that.

Really ?! So every other Religion is perfect in comparison to Islam ? And again, the only Religion you degrade is Islam. Note - Islam is not the only one that committed horrors to children.

If you think it was alright, in any time to wed and bed a child?! Then we are done. Then you might tell me that they didn't know any better, well, God said; ''First I'll let the grown ups have their fun with little kids, marry them and fuck them, and then later I'll make them create laws to forbid this. But first I have to make so many kids suffer.''
This does not make any frikkin' sense to me at all ! Why not put it in the commandments? Thou shalt not have sexual intercourse with children. Or why did he not make one of his spokesman tell his people that marrying and fucking a child is wrong, no, let's wait a few hundred years before we put a stop to this.

Your an Anglican, someone who believes that what is in the OT and NT will bring you salvation. I keep forgetting I'm arguing with someone who believes in a dictator in the sky. Because that is what it all comes down to, follow the lessons in the Bible and be allowed into heaven. Dawkins and Hitchens have in many debates slaughtered on what you think is ''the way''. Or a 'middle-way' at that.

[Aractus]

• YOUR ONLY ISSUE SEEMS TO BE WITH ISLAM, AND THE ONLY TIME YOU ADMIT SOMETHING IS WITH MUHAMMAD, MAKES ME WONDER...
  I CONSIDER MYSELF AN ANTI THEIST IN THE MAKING, SO I ADDRESS ALL RELIGIONS. BUT YOU, HOWEVER SEEM TO ONLY ATTACK ISLAM, ACTUALLY KINDA TYPICAL. AND I'M STARTING TO BELIEVE YOU ARE THE KIND OF CLOSED MINDED TYPE OF; MAN OF FAITH. SO YOUR GOD IS THE BEST AND YOU WILL NOW GO TO HEAVEN FOR DEFENDING HIM ON THE INTERNET, EEEEHM, GREAT.

Mate, it's like this. I called you out on your bullshit and you can't even admit that you were wrong. There are people who know history much better than I do, and could school you three ways to Friday with it. And the very fact that you address me in this way, shows me that your bias is not merely for your own worldview, but rather that you hold those who have other beliefs to you in contempt.

• YOU SAY; SO WHAT !? A TRUE CHILD MOLESTER COULD THINK THE SAME THING - SO WHAT, IT WAS DONE BACK THEN AND BY JOSEPH SMITH, I CAN DO IT TOO.
  THIS IS EXACTLY MY POINT, AND STILL YOU....DON'T...GET...MY....ISSUE. OF COURSE RELIGION DIDN'T INVENT THESE HORRORS, HOWEVER DOES PRACTICE THEM IN THE NAME OF...A DEITY OF SOME SORT WHICH MAKES THEM SEVERELY DELUDED.
  

Hey, reality check - that isn't child molestation. Child molestation is when an adult has sexual intercourse - or otherwise sexually abuses - a prepubescent child. That's child molestation. A paedophile, is a person who is sexually attracted to prepubescent children. Having sex with a person below the age of 18 can be statutory rape (and this is often where age of consent laws come in). Child molestation has zero to do with teenagers.

• ALL IT SOUNDS LIKE TO ME IS UNINFORMED ANTISEMITIC GARBAGE.

  I AM SO GLAD YOU SAID 'UNIFORMED'. BECAUSE I GOT THAT LITTLE PIECE OF INFO FROM CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS' BOOK. I'M ALMOST SURE YOU WILL MAKE A LOUSY ATTEMPT TO BASH AND DISCREDIT HIM, HOWEVER, I WILL JUST SMILE WHEN YOU DO AND LET YOU SWIM HAPPILY IN YOUR POOL OF IGNORANCE. THAT IS ONLY IF...
  

Pfft. Get a real reference for that claim. I stand by what I said.

• REALLY ?! SO EVERY OTHER RELIGION IS PERFECT IN COMPARISON TO ISLAM ? AND AGAIN, THE ONLY RELIGION YOU DEGRADE IS ISLAM. NOTE - ISLAM IS NOT THE ONLY ONE THAT COMMITTED HORRORS TO CHILDREN.
  
  IF YOU THINK IT WAS ALRIGHT, IN ANY TIME TO WED AND BED A CHILD?! THEN WE ARE DONE. THEN YOU MIGHT TELL ME THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW ANY BETTER, WELL, GOD SAID; ''FIRST I'LL LET THE GROWN UPS HAVE THEIR FUN WITH LITTLE KIDS, MARRY THEM AND FUCK THEM, AND THEN LATER I'LL MAKE THEM CREATE LAWS TO FORBID THIS. BUT FIRST I HAVE TO MAKE SO MANY KIDS SUFFER.''
  THIS DOES NOT MAKE ANY FRIKKIN' SENSE TO ME AT ALL ! WHY NOT PUT IT IN THE COMMANDMENTS? THOU SHALT NOT HAVE SEXUAL INTERCOURSE WITH CHILDREN. OR WHY DID HE NOT MAKE ONE OF HIS SPOKESMAN TELL HIS PEOPLE THAT MARRYING AND FUCKING A CHILD IS WRONG, NO, LET'S WAIT A FEW HUNDRED YEARS BEFORE WE PUT A STOP TO THIS.

You aren't listening to what I have told you.

And I don't much care for the way in which you communicate with me.

You do realize don't you, that 14 year olds in our western society are having premarital consensual sex; don't you? Hell I know people who had their first sex at 12! Now let me guess, if a 14 year old has sex with a 16 year old - well they don't know any better. But if a 14 year old has sex with a 29 year old - then the 29 year old should know better, right? Couldn't agree more. Why do you think we don't let 17 year olds marry in Australia? Two 17 year old want to get married, why don't we let them? Hmm? You want to know why? Because they most likely will not stick together. In our society if 17 year olds get married, chances are a divorce is just a year or two - at most - away.

Fine.

We have a society in which we have ... EDUCATION. I haven't seen you use this word once yet. You know what happens if a 29 year old gets married to a 14 year old? The 14 year old drops out of school. In fact, let me take this a step further.

A good friend of mine, Kath. Now I would have been about 22 or 23, she was 16. And she told me that she was moving in with her boyfriend, and I said "are you sure that this is the right choice?" And she said "shut up you don't know anything, you're just jealous". I'm like OK, whatever. So literally about a week after her 17th birthday, she moved to Sydney to live with her 29-year old boyfriend. I wasn't happy about it, but hey I don't get a fucking say in the matter do I because it's legal, it's not like any laws are being breeched. But she didn't finish school! She didn't finish year 11 let alone year 12. That was always my concern.

I'll tell you about another friend of mine - about a year later. She was 17, and she really liked me, and I certainly wouldn't have liked to have started a relationship with her and been responsible for her dropping out of school - so and that's not the only reason - but I told her I wasn't interested in having a relationship. And she and I are still good friends - unlike Kath who never talked to me again.

So don't come and lecture me about what you think is moral.

• YOUR AN ANGLICAN, SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THAT WHAT IS IN THE OT AND NT WILL BRING YOU SALVATION. I KEEP FORGETTING I'M ARGUING WITH SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES IN A DICTATOR IN THE SKY. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT ALL COMES DOWN TO, FOLLOW THE LESSONS IN THE BIBLE AND BE ALLOWED INTO HEAVEN. DAWKINS AND HITCHENS HAVE IN MANY DEBATES SLAUGHTERED ON WHAT YOU THINK IS ''THE WAY''. OR A 'MIDDLE-WAY' AT THAT.

And I keep forgetting that I'm talking to an idiot.

[Arellius]

And I keep forgetting that I'm talking to an idiot.

There was no need for name calling, you have now dropped to a lower level of communication which only proves that you can't handle a discussion with a stranger on the internet. Instead of saying; ''Get your facts right, go do some studying.'' I might of, but calling me an idiot just because you don't get my view? Disappointing.

Didn't I say before I knew the definition of child molestation, pedophilia and statutory rape? I guess you overlooked that, and you overlooked that I agreed to change the topic because it was more off track with what I was saying. I did address Catholic priests a number of times in this topic, pedophiles right?

Mate, it's like this. I called you out on your bullshit and you can't even admit that you were wrong. There are people who know history much better than I do, and could school you three ways to Friday with it. And the very fact that you address me in this way, shows me that your bias is not merely for your own worldview, but rather that you hold those who have other beliefs to you in contempt.

You call this a straight answer to my statement of you having only issues with Islam?

EDUCATION

Really ? What kind of education are we talking about? The books of your faith are, well, mythical. Let's not go into that because you would lose.

You aren't listening to what I have told you.

I would admit to being an idiot if I was listening to what you were writing... I think it would be easier if I would just read it.

Pfft. Get a real reference for that claim. I stand by what I said.

First you never heard of such a thing, and now I should get a ''real'' reference? So in a way this too would be the only reference you have. You dismiss information what I read in a book by Christopher Hitchens? Google his resources.

You do realize don't you, that 14 year old's in our western society are having premarital consensual sex; don't you?

What or who are these people driven by ? Western Society is a broad view, which countries and/or city's ? What are the reasons why the parents of the 14 year old's (specifically girls) approve of this ?

This is the last time I'm going to say it because I get the feeling your skipping words in between sentences.
If the 29 year old's you talk about are driven by FAITH to marry a teenager [or younger] then they are deluded and need psychiatric help. 21+ men should indeed know better than to seduce a teenager, they should grow a pair and look for someone their own age. 30 and 18, I'd raise an eyebrow and have an opinion on the relationship, however that is legal over here so there is not much to be done about that.

You also keep coming back to what is and isn't alright by law. I'm talking about people who claim to speak with the Almighty [of whatever religion] and get their advice to seduce teenagers solely from their faith based social circle. You know why people of faith would find it okay to marry teenagers? Because they can't handle real women! Just like most of'm decided to be celibate, because they can't get laid and/or can't seduce anyone their own age.

When [if] you answer again, just give me straight answers or none at all.

[Aractus]

• There was no need for name calling, you have now dropped to a lower level of communication which only proves that you can't handle a discussion with a stranger on the internet. Instead of saying; ''Get your facts right, go do some studying.'' I might of, but calling me an idiot just because you don't get my view? Disappointing.

No, I've already called you on your BS, and you keep tooting the same bs line about religion and paedophilia.

• Didn't I say before I knew the definition of child molestation, pedophilia and statutory rape? I guess you overlooked that, and you overlooked that I agreed to change the topic because it was more off track with what I was saying. I did address Catholic priests a number of times in this topic, pedophiles right?

I'm not going back to an earlier time in the discussion.

• You call this a straight answer to my statement of you having only issues with Islam?

Islam is the main religion which I have an issue with when it comes to child sex abuse/paedophilia/child marriage. Catholicism is another one, but for different reasons, the RCC outright condemns it - as it should - but the politics of the Vatican tell a story of cover-ups, complacency and helping their priests avoid prosecution. That aside - child sex abuse isn't done in the name of the religion, it's done in defiance of it and condemned by it.

• Really ? What kind of education are we talking about? The books of your faith are, well, mythical. Let's not go into that because you would lose.

And you wonder why I'm fucking sick of talking to you, and your fucking BS POV.

• I would admit to being an idiot if I was listening to what you were writing... I think it would be easier if I would just read it.

Go and fucking learn English, then come back here. There is a huge difference between being spoken to, being addressed in writing and, well, listening.

• • lis•ten
    intr.v. lis•tened, lis•ten•ing, lis•tens
    1. To make an effort to hear something: listen to the radio; listening for the bell.
    2. To pay attention; heed: "She encouraged me to listen carefully to what country people called mother wit" (Maya Angelou).
    n.
    An act of listening: Would you like to give the CD a listen before buying it?
    Phrasal Verb:
    listen in
    1. To listen to a conversation between others; eavesdrop.
    2. To tune in and listen to a broadcast.

• First you never heard of such a thing, and now I should get a ''real'' reference? So in a way this too would be the only reference you have. You dismiss information what I read in a book by Christopher Hitchens? Google his resources.

I might accept that for certain types of testimony, but I don't accept it on matters of Jewish antiquity - like I said, get a real reference to your claim.

• What or who are these people driven by ? Western Society is a broad view, which countries and/or city's ? What are the reasons why the parents of the 14 year old's (specifically girls) approve of this ?

I didn't say anything about parents, stop making straw man arguments.

• This is the last time I'm going to say it because I get the feeling your skipping words in between sentences.

So it's OK for you to use English in that way - but not for me to??

• If the 29 year old's you talk about are driven by FAITH to marry a teenager [or younger] then they are deluded and need psychiatric help. 21+ men should indeed know better than to seduce a teenager, they should grow a pair and look for someone their own age. 30 and 18, I'd raise an eyebrow and have an opinion on the relationship, however that is legal over here so there is not much to be done about that.

Really? "Driven by faith". I've already demonstrated that your argument is BS, that these things are social and not religious (primary exception here being Islam) and you refuse to accept it. Go fucking stick your head further down that hole.

• You also keep coming back to what is and isn't alright by law. I'm talking about people who claim to speak with the Almighty [of whatever religion] and get their advice to seduce teenagers solely from their faith based social circle. You know why people of faith would find it okay to marry teenagers? Because they can't handle real women! Just like most of'm decided to be celibate, because they can't get laid and/or can't seduce anyone their own age.

Wow, more straw man arguments - how utterly pathetic of you.

It's as if you've learned nothing.

Wait a second...

You have learned nothing. Nothing whatsoever. Nothing but biased, bigoted views.

You want to know where views like yours led to? Nazism. But keep on pretending you know better.

[Arellius]

I'm not going back to an earlier time in the discussion.

So you won't even acknowledge I had already made a point, again, disappointing. Were arguing about Religion, to go back in time or bring up another topic is inevitable.

Islam is the main religion which I have an issue with when it comes to child sex abuse/paedophilia/child marriage.

Finally, a straight answer. And something we can both agree upon, but still, it doesn't make other Religions any better.

Go and fucking learn English, then come back here. There is a huge difference between being spoken to, being addressed in writing and, well, listening.

You have a severe lack of interpretation, especially for someone who has posted so much and spent so much time here. I was being, very, sarcastic. But it doesn't surprise me that you are closed minded and quick to judge.

So it's OK for you to use English in that way - but not for me to??

I never said you can't read or write English, just that you don't get my view, and I assumed you were speeding through my answers. Take your time to read, think, then answer.

I didn't say anything about parents, stop making straw man arguments.

That's an answer to the last question, what about the other two ?

You want to know where views like yours led to? Nazism. But keep on pretending you know better.

Go fucking stick your head further down that hole.

This is just not called for, I'm here to debate and you attack me personally. You said in an earlier post that Islam was a so called ''religion of peace'' but so far I have seen nothing of peace from you either. It's just sad to see someone react this way to a petty little argument only a handful of people pay attention to. Do you honestly think that with an attitude like this you are helping your fellow Anglican's ? If I were as closed minded as you are I'd think, because of you, that all Anglican's are sad.

Haha, I just came to a funny realization. How a man of faith (you) resorts to cursing quicker than an infidel (me). For the sake of argument, you think God will pat you on the shoulder for attempting to school a stranger on the world wide web ? Or will he punish you for judging thy neighbor, hahaha Is Religion a force for good in the world? Depends on how you personally interpret it I guess, however, it doesn't seem to be working for you.

Thanks for the discussion and the welcome in my intro post, however this is going nowhere. I don't care about your next answers, I might read it but I won't reply.