Atheist vs. agnostic vs. agnostic atheist

[whatever76]

You seem to have missed the point of what Simon Moon was saying. The question you just asked was about knowledge (does God exist?). Now, an atheist may answer "no" to this question, and a theist may remark "yes", but the definitions of both atheist and theist do not require them to do so, because atheism is not "knowing there is no God", and theism is not "knowing there is a God". Both atheism and theism are defined in terms of belief.

Are there atheists that know God exists? If not, what is the value in making the distinction between knowing and believing?

[bennyboy]

You seem to have missed the point of what Simon Moon was saying. The question you just asked was about knowledge (does God exist?). Now, an atheist may answer "no" to this question, and a theist may remark "yes", but the definitions of both atheist and theist do not require them to do so, because atheism is not "knowing there is no God", and theism is not "knowing there is a God". Both atheism and theism are defined in terms of belief.

Are there atheists that know God exists? If not, what is the value in making the distinction between knowing and believing?

I would say that if one is not willing to say his position constitutes "knowledge," then he doesn't really believe it: at best, he has a strong personal hunch. If you ask a Christian if they know God exists, they'll answer strongly in the affirmative; if they do not, they aren't really Christian. Nor in the case of any sensible atheist is the jury actually out on the existence of God; this stance of (willing to change opinion if evidence is presented) is BS-- the person not only lacks a belief in God, but also a belief that the God idea can be framed in a way that allows for meaningful evidence to be produced.

Repeat after me-- "I believe there are no gods."

[KichigaiNeko]

I think it is safe to say that I am agnostic about a great many things and do not believe a great many things

"Is there a god?" ........ Don't know, there is no evidence either way

"Do you believe there is a god(s) / goddess(s)?"........ No.

---

"Do you believe in any religion?".......... No, I think they are all just idea constructs.

[whatever76]

Are there atheists that know God exists? If not, what is the value in making the distinction between knowing and believing?

I would say that if one is not willing to say his position constitutes "knowledge," then he doesn't really believe it: at best, he has a strong personal hunch. If you ask a Christian if they know God exists, they'll answer strongly in the affirmative; if they do not, they aren't really Christian. Nor in the case of any sensible atheist is the jury actually out on the existence of God; this stance of (willing to change opinion if evidence is presented) is BS-- the person not only lacks a belief in God, but also a belief that the God idea can be framed in a way that allows for meaningful evidence to be produced.

Repeat after me-- "I believe there are no gods."

I agree with you. Intelligent arguments I've seen for theism focus on the point that atheists have a very narrow definition of knowing, one that doesn't really make sense in light of who or what God is being defined as. Whereas the atheist will argue that the theist's "knowledge" is too vague.

I remember asking a guy who was a very faithful Christian how he had come to know God existed. He said that he had prayed one night that if God were real, he would wake him at a certain time the next morning. I didn't think it was a very good proof for obvious reasons, certainly not good enough to end up believing in the literal truth of the Bible (which he did). Most other stories I've heard (including ones I've told myself) have something to do with odd coincidences-- synchronicity-- that have lead the person to conclude that the universe is conscious.

If I were to give a definition of "Belief" it would be a claim that is taken as self-evident-- i.e. a presupposition. The theist goes off the premise that God does exist. We could say that anyone who doesn't start from that position is an atheist. The premise of the atheist, IMO, is no premise ("I don't know"). Belief always ends up in circular reasoning.

[downbeatplumb]

You are forgetting the electric monk.


http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/150267-t...dishwasher

Been years since I read it but isn't there a delux version of the electro-monk. The difference being that the delux version believes things they don't even believe in Salt Lake City.

Yes there was.