What is "FAITH"

[Consilius]

Thanks, fr0d0.

[Esquilax]

What's important is that each person excepts Christ for who He is and what He did, most of the rest are doctrinal differences that mean nothing about salvation, you do not understand what salvation is this is why you have trouble understanding us. Oh I know you can give the simple answer, however that's only words out of you mouth, not an understanding.

That's what you say, but it's hardly consensus, which is why we keep asking you, how can you prove that your definition is the right one. You've never given an answer beyond "that's what the bible says," and when we point out that other people read the same words and come to different conclusions you've never once seemed to even consider that yours might be the interpretation that's wrong. You fall back on the old personal experience gambit, conveniently ignoring that all the others are using the same damn excuse to validate their positions.

I know it will be hard, but just for a moment, imagine that you're wrong. Better yet, imagine you're looking at all this from the outside; who do I trust? Why do I trust you over anyone else? You're all claiming exactly the same thing, and using exactly the same kinds of justifications to do it; if I'm catholic the reason the protestants are wrong is because they haven't studied the scriptures correctly, if I'm protestant the reverse is offered. You claim it's all doctrinal differences, but according to some sources those doctrines are the difference between heaven and hell. For ages the catholics had this concept of limbo, where all the unbaptized babies would go, and in essence you're treating an entire extra realm of existence as nothing more than a cosmetic difference.

So I ask you again: why should I take your salvation-only doctrine as true, when if I wanted to I could find another person, even a preacher if I really looked, that would tell me with equal conviction that I'm going to hell for sleeping with dudes, christian or not?

You haven't the ability to take me on, just forget it. It was the issue at hand until you decided it wasn't.

The issue was always interpretation. I don't care about the words of the bible, just the contents of the minds of its followers. The words remain the same- though some groups add books, or subtract them...- but the individual executions can vary remarkably. And you know this: you just shake it all off as unimportant.

I have no idea what this is in response to.

You said that most differences in doctrine aren't important enough to worry about. It's my contention that absolutely anything that might affect the fate of your immortal soul is worth serious consideration.

According to the scriptures it's true, now I know you do not like to open up the book, but this time I would like to see you prove there are more ways than one into salvation, sorry but scripture is your only option on this one. We are discussing my God here so let's not get side tracked by other religions.

But it's not up to me, because I don't think any interpretation of the bible conforms to reality. But we've got you on one hand, claiming all we need is salvation. We've got, on the other extreme, the westboro baptist church, claiming almost everyone is going to hell but them. Both of you point to scripture to justify your views. There are preachers right now claiming that if you're gay, you're going to hell, christian or not, and they're using Leviticus to do it. There are others who claim that all of the old testament doesn't count anymore, because the new testament exists.

The only thing that unites you all is your reliance on scripture to back this up. And your only answer, when confronted with this question, is "I'm right, look at scripture."

I am almost certain that if I asked any one of those others, they'd say the same things.

Why do you bring up such ridiculous things, you bring these things into a conversation to side track us from the relevant so you can avoid scripture, why don't you study the Bible and we could avoid all this ridiculous tripe.

I notice you didn't answer any of the questions, though. If they're so ridiculous, if you're actually in possession of the truth, then why can't you demonstrate that?

And if you just tell me to read the bible again, I'll just start quoting from the holy Spiderman.

Personal experience is everything to God, without it we could not come into salvation through grace, then it continues, why would I not want a relationship with my Friend.

So how do you answer those that have personal experiences with god that contradict the findings of your own personal experiences?

Once again you through out rubbish that means nothing, besides I can't threaten you with hell, hell is your choice. If it was that important then it would be in scripture, God would have made sure of it. Christ spoke of avoiding hell far more than He spoke of heaven, since He knows how both are it seems important that we listen.

I've been told by others that god is so holy that the mere sinful thinking is the same as the sin itself to him. Lustful thinking is the same as adultery, according to Matthew 5:28, why wouldn't violent thoughts be the same as actual violence? And isn't threatening someone with hell the most violent fate possible?

See how I used scripture to justify a claim that you probably disagree with? See how easy that is? Why are you right and why am I wrong?

[Godscreated]

I know God is real and I know He is who He says He is, I have no doubts about this, it is a sure thing. To look for an alternative would be lying to myself and that my friend would make me a liar. I have plenty of tangible proof, you want think it is because you did not experience it I did. I not one to try and fool myself, just isn't how I'm built.

I have no doubts that I am Batman. Prove me wrong.

With that you proved how childish you are, how's that.

---

I know God is real and I know He is who He says He is, I have no doubts about this, it is a sure thing.

The mind is capable of fooling one of many things.

May be your mind.

---

I have plenty of tangible proof...

Tangible proof means that we can experience it too. The Bible doesn't count because everyone interprets it differently, and its authorship is doubtful anyway.

So what's this tangible proof that everyone can experience? If you say the Holy Ghost, apparently everyone experiences that differently too, and sometimes it even leads people to Buddhism. That one is out too.

Tangible proof. Present it, please.

You're a most dishonest person, And because you are I see no reason to converse with you. I used tangible for my self and even qualified that I did. Yet you left that out to suggest I had proof, most dishonest, most!!

[Michael Schubert]

I don't believe in faith at all. In fact, faith is the ultimate form of dishonesty because you have faith in something when you are entirely independent of evidence. Faith simply makes you believe something you do not know, which is illogical.

[elegant_atheist]

Faith in terms of religion is no more than a cop out from presenting evidence. When any religious person, including Muslims, pulls the "faith card," they are essentially saying that they have nothing to back up their claim of an all-powerful creator other than the Bible, or their respective holy book. Although, many times religious people are indoctrinated into believing that their holy book is a precise historical text instead of a plagiarized version of all the religious texts and epics before it. In people like this, faith turns into a description of "since I believe in the Bible, you have no refutation because I have all the answers."

Also, in the society we live in currently, the "faith card" is used when a person wants you to back off with the rational questioning and just leave them alone and "respect" their beliefs. Basically, faith has always and will always be used to jump the hurdles of rational questions from nonbelievers/skeptics. The replacement of rational thought with the opposite, faith, is why religion has flourished for so long and fooled so many people.

[Godscreated]

When One is omnipotent nothing can be more powerful, you're dragging up speculation that is found no where except in the mind of atheists.

So you agree that God invented Hell. That he thought it up and created it. That he decided that souls would be immortal. That God himself decided that if you didn't happen to follow his path, or we can't figure out which is the correct path, or we just consider it unreliable like all other religions, that our eternal souls will burn in eternal agony forever?

God did not invent hell. Satan's actions demanded a punishment, for him, the heavenly followers of Satan, the same. Man followed Satan and does to this day, those who do not repent follow Satan into punishment. Yes the soul was created immortal, and I explained I do not believe in the eternal fire for man, you'll have to find someone else to argue with on the firey hell for man.

You agree God decided this of his own free will and he thought that was a wonderful idea

It was a necessary action because of Satan's betrayal of God and man's sinful action to follow Satan. I'm sure that God was hurt deeply by Satan's action and the subsequent creation of hell.

Because I don't see how me going to hell is my choice. I didn't invent hell. Your god supposedly did. He also set up reality that I would go there if I don't believe in him.

So who's choice is it again?

No you create the reality of hell's punishment in your life by choosing to disobey God and not accept Christ as your savior, hell is completely preventable if and I say if you choose Christ. So in the end it's your choice and no one else's.

[Godscreated]

---

What's important is that each person accepts Christ for who He is and what He did, most of the rest are doctrinal differences that mean nothing about salvation, you do not understand what salvation is this is why you have trouble understanding us. Oh I know you can give the simple answer, however that's only words out of you mouth, not an understanding.

---

That's what you say, but it's hardly consensus, which is why we keep asking you, how can you prove that your definition is the right one. You've never given an answer beyond "that's what the bible says," and when we point out that other people read the same words and come to different conclusions you've never once seemed to even consider that yours might be the interpretation that's wrong. You fall back on the old personal experience gambit, conveniently ignoring that all the others are using the same damn excuse to validate their positions.

Let me put it this way, you believe what you wish, it's your choice. I will believe what I will, it's my choice, and we'll see who lives with God for eternity, that way you can argue with God about this matter of why you were wrong.

I know it will be hard, but just for a moment, imagine that you're wrong. Better yet, imagine you're looking at all this from the outside; who do I trust? Why do I trust you over anyone else? You're all claiming exactly the same thing, and using exactly the same kinds of justifications to do it; if I'm catholic the reason the protestants are wrong is because they haven't studied the scriptures correctly, if I'm protestant the reverse is offered. You claim it's all doctrinal differences, but according to some sources those doctrines are the difference between heaven and hell. For ages the catholics had this concept of limbo, where all the unbaptized babies would go, and in essence you're treating an entire extra realm of existence as nothing more than a cosmetic difference.

Hoe old are you 12-13 because you act that age. I've told you before I do not deal in speculation about my life and will not for you or anyone else, it's a childish thing to do, you need to forget it I'm not going there. I do not know what Catholics believe about babies other than they should be baptized so they will go to heaven if they should die. I do not believe it's necessary, so either way the babies are in heaven and that's what's important.

So I ask you again: why should I take your salvation-only doctrine as true, when if I wanted to I could find another person, even a preacher if I really looked, that would tell me with equal conviction that I'm going to hell for sleeping with dudes, christian or not?

According to scripture if your sleeping with dudes you're living in sin and unrepentant sin will land you in hell, whether you claim to be a Christian or not. See, I said you did not understand salvation and you do not, salvation is by the grace of God not by anything you can do.

You haven't the ability to take me on, just forget it. It was the issue at hand until you decided it wasn't.

The issue was always interpretation. I don't care about the words of the bible, just the contents of the minds of its followers. The words remain the same- though some groups add books, or subtract them...- but the individual executions can vary remarkably. And you know this: you just shake it all off as unimportant.

The issue has always been the truth of scripture. The content of the believer's mind should be the truth received from God through scripture. Making the words of the Bible extremely important, just because this truth of God does not suit you does not make a bit of difference.
Here you are saying you're an expert on God's word, so bring the proof of your statement, I'll be waiting.

I have no idea what this is in response to.

You said that most differences in doctrine aren't important enough to worry about. It's my contention that absolutely anything that might affect the fate of your immortal soul is worth serious consideration.

Your ignorance of the word of God and salvation makes that statement... well let's say you have no idea what your talking about. You can make all these silly assertions you want, but until you can bring some intelligent thought into this I'm done.

According to the scriptures it's true, now I know you do not like to open up the book, but this time I would like to see you prove there are more ways than one into salvation, sorry but scripture is your only option on this one. We are discussing my God here so let's not get side tracked by other religions.

But it's not up to me, because I don't think any interpretation of the bible conforms to reality. But we've got you on one hand, claiming all we need is salvation. We've got, on the other extreme, the westboro baptist church, claiming almost everyone is going to hell but them. Both of you point to scripture to justify your views.

I do not know what they claim, any church that would do hateful acts as they do should come into question, they do with most of the Christians I know and probably all, I haven't asked all of them. If that's their view they will have to live with it, there are others who claim the same, I can't change them, doesn't matter I will be in heaven.

There are preachers right now claiming that if you're gay, you're going to hell, christian or not, and they're using Leviticus to do it. There are others who claim that all of the old testament doesn't count anymore, because the new testament exists.

I can't help how others believe, they've made their choice. I do not agree that a person being gay will get them a date with the devil, a gay can be a Christian, however they can not act upon their desires of wanting to be with someone of the same sex, that God says is an sinful act.

The only thing that unites you all is your reliance on scripture to back this up. And your only answer, when confronted with this question, is "I'm right, look at scripture."

I am almost certain that if I asked any one of those others, they'd say the same things.

Ask what, you need to be clearer.

Why do you bring up such ridiculous things, you bring these things into a conversation to side track us from the relevant so you can avoid scripture, why don't you study the Bible and we could avoid all this ridiculous tripe.

I notice you didn't answer any of the questions, though. If they're so ridiculous, if you're actually in possession of the truth, then why can't you demonstrate that?

And if you just tell me to read the bible again, I'll just start quoting from the holy Spiderman.

If you want to discuss the Bible then you need to read it, if you do not read it how are we to have a discussion. There was nothing to answer, I've been waiting on a sensible question from scripture.

Personal experience is everything to God, without it we could not come into salvation through grace, then it continues, why would I not want a relationship with my Friend.

So how do you answer those that have personal experiences with god that contradict the findings of your own personal experiences?

I do not know anyone who disagrees with the way I came to salvation, do you? If an experience does not line up with the truth of scripture it was not real.

Once again you through out rubbish that means nothing, besides I can't threaten you with hell, hell is your choice. If it was that important then it would be in scripture, God would have made sure of it. Christ spoke of avoiding hell far more than He spoke of heaven, since He knows how both are it seems important that we listen.

I've been told by others that god is so holy that the mere sinful thinking is the same as the sin itself to him. Lustful thinking is the same as adultery, according to Matthew 5:28, why wouldn't violent thoughts be the same as actual violence? And isn't threatening someone with hell the most violent fate possible?

I'm not threatening you with violence, all are bound for hell unless they come to salvation through Christ, I'm stating a fact of life, as I said I can't threaten you with something that will happen, unless you're willing to change the fact.

See how I used scripture to justify a claim that you probably disagree with? See how easy that is? Why are you right and why am I wrong?

I see how you have failed at every point to prove anything, sorry but what you see as threatening is truth of scripture, I have changed that truth in my life by accepting Christ through grace for my salvation. Want you?

[Bad Wolf]

No you create the reality of hell's punishment in your life by choosing to disobey God and not accept Christ as your savior, hell is completely preventable if and I say if you choose Christ. So in the end it's your choice and no one else's.

Wrong. Please look up the 'mafia boss' analogy

[Bad Writer]

I have no doubts that I am Batman. Prove me wrong.

With that you proved how childish you are, how's that.

Once again you are at odds with the consensus, this time in reference to your thoughts about how childish you think I am.

In reality, I've not proven how childish I am. In fact, you have once again made another claim. I will ask, how does this prove that I'm childish? With you ignoring my urging for you to prove I'm not Batman, you have hurt your own case even more. It's another case of the 'la la la I can't hear you's.

Tangible proof means that we can experience it too. The Bible doesn't count because everyone interprets it differently, and its authorship is doubtful anyway.

So what's this tangible proof that everyone can experience? If you say the Holy Ghost, apparently everyone experiences that differently too, and sometimes it even leads people to Buddhism. That one is out too.

Tangible proof. Present it, please.

You're a most dishonest person, And because you are I see no reason to converse with you. I used tangible for my self and even qualified that I did. Yet you left that out to suggest I had proof, most dishonest, most!!

You agreeing with yourself doesn't qualify a thing. You're also the only one to agree that I'm dishonest, btw.

I find it hard to believe that you don't have anything to say to me. Your whole off-putting demeanor is testament to the fact that my questions are too hard for you to deal with, and so you try to swat me away like a fly. Well, if it were that easy, then you shouldn't even have to say anything to me in the first place. Why do you hold my words to you as a threat when all I'm doing is trying to get to the bottom of your disregard for evidence, logic, and finding the facts? Circumventing facts just to appease some entity you can't possibly know is real is the true lie.

If you weren't scared that perhaps God isn't real, then nothing we say should even affect you. You should not be reacting so in such a volatile manner to anything we say to you. If you're so certain, then act like you are instead of like a little coward. And if you're scared, investigate those fears.

[Bad Wolf]

Let me put it this way, you believe what you wish, it's your choice. I will believe what I will, it's my choice, and we'll see who lives with God for eternity, that way you can argue with God about this matter of why you were wrong.

Wrong again. You do not choose what you believe. That is impossible. I did not choose to be an atheist, it came around as a result of the evidence. I did not think: 'hmmm, this is how I choose to interpret the evidence' Its just how I think and you cannot change how you think. Indeed, I have heard atheists honestly say that they want to believe in God, but they just can't.

I'm not sure about you but many Christians don't actually choose at all. Their parents are Christians therefore they teach the bible and christianity as truth. Therefore the children believe them. Another example (although different in concept) of absence of choice in beliefs. Why not wait until the child is old enough to think about these things and see which religion they would choose (if any) when they have more of a perspective on the world? (rehtorical question)