Ok I admit it

[Esquilax]

1. No. But you can work out if it exists.

How? That's the important part, I don't know why you keep skipping over it in favor of just assuring me that it's there.

I don't know that Australia exists. I could prove it physically, but I haven't. I trust information from various sources that it does. That is enough for me to believe. All of us make this leap on information received.

If it helps, I'm sitting in Western Australia right now.

2. Detect it at all physically?

No, just at all. What I'm trying to get at is how you arrived at the conclusion that the metaphysical stuff exists, and what lines of evidence/reasoning led you to that, and confirmed it to you in your mind?

I'm not asking you what you believe; I'm asking why.

[Mudhammam]

I don't know that Australia exists. I could prove it physically, but I haven't. I trust information from various sources that it does. That is enough for me to believe. All of us make this leap on information received.

It's a good thing we can verify other bodies of land though.
Does it cause you great concern to entertain the possibility that Australia doesn't exist? If not, why should something far more elusive and imagined?

[fr0d0]

1. No. But you can work out if it exists.

How? That's the important part, I don't know why you keep skipping over it in favor of just assuring me that it's there.

I keep skipping over it because whenever I address it you come back with the retort that what I've said has no physical representation. That's been your only objection. You refuse to let go of your safety blanket.

[Mudhammam]

How? That's the important part, I don't know why you keep skipping over it in favor of just assuring me that it's there.

I keep skipping over it because whenever I address it you come back with the retort that what I've said has no physical representation. That's been your only objection. You refuse to let go of your safety blanket.

Basically, just trust fr0d0 because he has felt God swell up in his bosom. And it was really him!

[Esquilax]

I keep skipping over it because whenever I address it you come back with the retort that what I've said has no physical representation. That's been your only objection. You refuse to let go of your safety blanket.

I think you're misunderstanding me: regardless of whatever else goes into your rationale here, there has to be something extant that prompted your chain of thought to begin with. An observation about the world that you start from. Thoughts don't happen in a matterless vacuum, after all. Presuppositions do, but justified trains of thought don't.

I'm not asking for physical evidence here, I'm asking you to deliver your chain of premises and conclusions from the initial observation all the way to your final conclusion that god exists.

[pocaracas]

If you pray according to God's will, it gets done.
If you don't pray, God's will gets done.
If you pray against God's will, it doesn't get done.
If you don't pray, what god doesn't will, doesn't get done.

Did I miss an option, Frodo?

No that's all perfectly correct.
Of course the answers could be different. Not praying can't change Gods will, where praying can. You will always know Gods will by what happens.

Praying can change god's will?
That's news for me...

[FreeTony]

You use your brains esq. Logic and reason.

You cannot infer something about the universe without observing said universe.

Chrisitans do make physical observations on which they base these "logical" arguments. They can observe the universe exists. They observe the Bible. They may observe something in their brain that they interpet is God talking to them.


I propose a metaphysical creature exists and lives in my garage. Logically prove it exists without going anywhere near my garage.

[fr0d0]

Your creature has no purpose Tony. God has a purpose which is where we rationalise from.

It changes Gods will from what it would have been to what it changed to pokie. And we're in deep water without a life jacket!

I don't understand why it had to be extant esq. Extant like I had to learn language you mean? Sure... we are all machines acting upon the information that we've been fed. I know parts of the UK exist. I believe Australia exists. I believe God exists.

I began from atheist roots. I questioned hard and discovered an overwhelming amount of evidence against my lack of belief. I could not the continue to disbelieve, the cognitive dissonance was too great. Can I tell you one fact to change your mind? No. You have to balance all of the facts together.

There has been presented on this forum enough information for anyone to work out the same conclusion as me. As you know, nearly all people here cling on to their preconceived ideas. Most develop them.

As a true skeptic, how much time do you spend doubting your own position? I would say that your position is groundless if you do not. How much time do you devote to entrenching your position? Isn't that a dangerous game?

[pocaracas]

Your creature has no purpose Tony. God has a purpose which is where we rationalise from.

It changes Gods will from what it would have been to what it changed to pokie. And we're in deep water without a life jacket!

I've always been under the impression that god's will was immutable and, sometimes, it just happened to line up with what was prayed for...

I began from atheist roots. I questioned hard and discovered an overwhelming amount of evidence against my lack of belief. I could not the continue to disbelieve, the cognitive dissonance was to great. Can I tell you one fact to change your mind? No. You have to balance all of the facts together.

All the facts... such as?...

There has been presented on this forum enough information for anyone to work out the same conclusion as me.

Aww... you're not going to present them for us newer members?
In a concise form for even the laziest of us?


PLEEEEEAASEE!!

As a true skeptic, how much time do you spend doubting your own position? I would say that your position is groundless if you do not. How much time do you devote to entrenching your position? Isn't that a dangerous game?

Doubting the position of lack of evidence for the existence of a god?
Perhaps that's due to never having been exposed to said evidence... or because it just doesn't exist (the evidence)...
We keep asking you to present it, but you always dodge it, saying you've already done it somewhere, somewhen...

[fr0d0]

Yours is a game of sophistry pokie.