Our God-figure Who Art in Heaven ...

[Lek]

Maybe she realized what a terrible job people are doing and hoped she would be able to blame it on God instead.

Perhaps, but it's highly unlikely.
Her parents are devout Christian Reform and she was referencing their claims. Specifically, their continual prayer requests that never EVER get answered.

For instance:
They prayed for a boy in their church for a healing of his Leukemia. Yep, the boy is still dying.
They prayed for funds to replace the front doors of their church which were damaged in a wind storm. Yep, the old doors are still there.
They prayed that a local girl would be found unharmed and returned to her family. Yep, she was found raped and murdered.
They prayed that my son's birthday would have good warm weather. Yep, it was cold and rainy.
They prayed for my aging uncles annual checkup. Yep, the doctor found skin cancer.

My wife wasn't blaming your god for the crimes of humans. She was referring to his complete lack of interest and power to effect anything.



I take that back ...
My mother-in-law did pray that she would find her eye-glasses - and voila, your god apparently does want old gullible imbeciles to see well.

According to our prayer model, the Lord's prayer, we're instructed to pray that his will be done and we are to pray that he will supply our daily needs. When we pray we need to believe in the one to whom we are praying. If we ask according to his will, then we are willing to accept his will. Are you saying that none of their prayers ever got a "yes" answer or are you just bringing up prayers that got a "no" answer. One thing is true - God is no Santa Claus, and if you don't accept him, he's not apt to listen much.

[Chad32]

If praying doesn't convince him to do things he wasn't going to do already, then what's the point of prayer?

[Cinjin]

According to our prayer model, the Lord's prayer, we're instructed to pray that his will be done and we are to pray that he will supply our daily needs. When we pray we need to believe in the one to whom we are praying. If we ask according to his will, then we are willing to accept his will. Are you saying that none of their prayers ever got a "yes" answer or are you just bringing up prayers that got a "no" answer. One thing is true - God is no Santa Claus, and if you don't accept him, he's not apt to listen much.

Apologists rhetoric. This is what you wish it says, but allow me to present what it actually says:

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Luke 11:9-10
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.


The DISCLAIMER that you WISH existed does NOT. It does not say that Christians must ask things that are in god's will. In fact, you people claim it's impossible to know the will of god, so how pray-tell, could you EVER pray??? "The Lord's Prayer" is a very general prayer of worship. It is meant to say "that in all things, thy will be done because you are our master." It in NO WAY nullifies the words of Mark and Luke. You christians want so desperately to get around the fact that your god doesn't answer prayer that you're willing to ignore these verses and add your own horse shit DISCLAIMERS.

But if that's not enough - the Bible further contradicts your lies:

Luke 11:11-13
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[a] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

It actually compares your god to a real life father and the gifts that such a figure would bestow upon his own children. Yet still, you blather on about how all prayers have to be ear-marked "will of god." Lies. It does not say that, and further more the requests that her parents put in were far FAR from selfish. You people aren't known for being real bright, so I'll explain it according to this last scripture reference:

If my father could save my little brother from Leukemia, I know without a doubt he would. Your Bible ancient book of lies says, how much greater would my Heavenly father respond to my requests. Ergo, my request is that god cure my little brother's Leukemia.

You get it now right? There is no DISCLAIMER and using the Lord's Prayer as some sort of prayer-standard is an outright filthy lie.

[Lek]

You get it now right? There is no DISCLAIMER and using the Lord's Prayer as some sort of prayer-standard is an outright filthy lie.

The disciples asked Jesus himself how to pray. He told them to pray "like this" and he recited the Lord's prayer to them. To me that's a model of prayer, straight from Jesus' mouth. We're not going to ask him to do something against his will. He does cause things to happen which wouldn't ordinarily happen, in which case it would be something that conforms to his will, rather than something that runs counter to it.

[Minimalist]

we're instructed to pray that his will be done and we are to pray that he will supply our daily needs.

Won't "his will" be done whether or not you pray? WTF good is it to be 'god' if he's helpless without your silly prayers?

[Lek]

we're instructed to pray that his will be done and we are to pray that he will supply our daily needs.

Won't "his will" be done whether or not you pray? WTF good is it to be 'god' if he's helpless without your silly prayers?

When we do things that are counter to his will, which is sin, his will is not being done. He can do whatever he wants, but he can also give us what we ask for if it isn't sinful. He doesn't have to though - it's his choice.

[Chad32]

Won't "his will" be done whether or not you pray? WTF good is it to be 'god' if he's helpless without your silly prayers?

When we do things that are counter to his will, which is sin, his will is not being done. He can do whatever he wants, but he can also give us what we ask for if it isn't sinful. He doesn't have to though - it's his choice.

That doesn't really say why he doesn't save people from disease, help fix churches, or why he explicitely said you will get what you ask for, and yet not give what people ask for unselfishly.

[Lek]

That doesn't really say why he doesn't save people from disease, help fix churches, or why he explicitely said you will get what you ask for, and yet not give what people ask for unselfishly.

Yes it does. Either he didn't want to do it or it wasn't time to do it yet.

[Chad32]

Then he may as well not exist, if he's so inconsistent.

[Cinjin]

The disciples asked Jesus himself how to pray. He told them to pray "like this" and he recited the Lord's prayer to them. To me that's a model of prayer, straight from Jesus' mouth. We're not going to ask him to do something against his will. He does cause things to happen which wouldn't ordinarily happen, in which case it would be something that conforms to his will, rather than something that runs counter to it.

That's what it means TO YOU?
No one cares what it means to you. I'm only pointing out what the Bible actually says, and it says a lot about prayer. However, you and the rest of the cherry pickers, want to use only ONE of those verses to put a DISCLAIMER that doesn't even exist on all prayer. So hey lets analyze your precious Lord's Prayer ...

Matthew 6:9-13
This, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come,
your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.'

Hmmm, sounds a lot more like a generalized mantra of worship, but hey, lets assume that jesus really did want you to pray this way.

Our Father in Heaven, hallowed be your name = Well, that sounds like a reasonable way to introduce one's self to a deity.
Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. = It seems VERY obvious to any sane person that ole jesus is speaking of things to come and not referring to any sort of requests he is making. He is clearly making a generalized statement of his wishes and letting the "Father" know where his allegiance lies. Seems very plausible that he would've been showing the disciples how to show respect and allegiance to their god. After all, ones intentions are extremely important to your angry god. Regardless, Jesus is making NO requests at this point.
Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. = Tell me, is that something you say every time you pray? It's NOT?!? But But ... Jesus gave you instructions!?! I thought this is how you're "supposed to pray."
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. = Wait WHAT?!?! Tell me Lek, do you regularly ask god not to lead you into something that would tempt you to do wrong??!! You DON'T?!?! Wait Wait ... don't you pray this way every time you pray?!?!

Ohh ohhh, you're saying that the only part you really do every time is the 'god's will part.' Got it. You ignore the rest of the verse and you interpret the one part you follow completely wrong. For the last time, that verse does NOT SAY that you have to ask for things that are only within the will of god. Yes, you NEED IT to say that to explain away the complete lack of power in prayer, but it does not say that and neither do the other verses. Rather the opposite.

Go ahead, tell me something else that your bible DOESN'T say. Shooting down your lies is easy when I have your bible to back me up.