The Baha'i Faith

[logicalreason]

Dear Zan,

Let me digest this, let other chime in, so I can explain this a little better. I am certain of this. But I am not explaining it well. Also see my blog with tons more of evidence. Google "nontheist Bahai", first on the list.

Thanks for being nice, I hope I have been nice too.

[FatAndFaithless]

The Christian belief that Jesus is God is different. That belief is that God the Father fathered the Son, so the Father is in the Son.

So who impregnated the mother of Baha'u'llah?

This is not a theistic position, I am sorry to tell you.

Dear sir, I'm confused. How exactly is stating that the Manifestation of God is the Essence of God non-theistic? It is a position I personally have trouble with, but I can understand why some people would prefer it. Nonetheless, it appears to be clearly theistic to me.

---

Hey guys, question from an ignorant observer. In that paragraph you guys are discussing, when it says that people shouldn't "engage in contention and disputation"...does really mean people can't argue about their faith?

"Contention and dispution" refers to antagonistic argument, attempting to force your religious opinions upon another. However, polite discussion is encouraged.

So even when it says that "argument and conflict" lead to ruin, it just means that being a dick about it leads to ruin?

[zanOTK]

Dear Zan,

Let me digest this, let other chime in, so I can explain this a little better. I am certain of this. But I am not explaining it well. Also see my blog with tons more of evidence. Google "nontheist Bahai", first on the list.

Thanks for being nice, I hope I have been nice too.

My friend, I will search for your blog. Go ahead and take as much time as you wish, and thank you for the discussion. I have enjoyed it.

Further, thank you from refraining from resorting to antagonistic behavior. It was quite refreshing after the debates I have been involved in with others recently (mostly on Facebook, some in person).

[logicalreason]

FatandFaithless,

Brilliant. Exactly my point. Argument and conflict lead to ruin, not simply being rude about it.

I think I have said enough for now. Have fun Zan.

[zanOTK]

Dear sir, I'm confused. How exactly is stating that the Manifestation of God is the Essence of God non-theistic? It is a position I personally have trouble with, but I can understand why some people would prefer it. Nonetheless, it appears to be clearly theistic to me.

---

"Contention and dispution" refers to antagonistic argument, attempting to force your religious opinions upon another. However, polite discussion is encouraged.

So even when it says that "argument and conflict" lead to ruin, it just means that being a dick about it leads to ruin?

Personally, I find "argument and conflict" is a dick behavior in the first place. As I said, polite discussion is encouraged. Polite discussion is not the same as "argument and conflict."

[FatAndFaithless]

So even when it says that "argument and conflict" lead to ruin, it just means that being a dick about it leads to ruin?

Personally, I find "argument and conflict" is a dick behavior in the first place. As I said, polite discussion is encouraged. Polite discussion is not the same as "argument and conflict."

But argument and conflict are a part of life, especially when dealing with things about which you're passionate. One can be passionately energetic and assertive in an argument without insulting or trolling or something like that. I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect people to remain in some sort of formal polite calm bubble when discussing important things.

[zanOTK]

Personally, I find "argument and conflict" is a dick behavior in the first place. As I said, polite discussion is encouraged. Polite discussion is not the same as "argument and conflict."

But argument and conflict are a part of life, especially when dealing with things about which you're passionate. One can be passionately energetic and assertive in an argument without insulting or trolling or something like that. I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect people to remain in some sort of formal polite calm bubble when discussing important things.

And why is that? If you do not remain polite, and calm, then you have most likely allowed your passions to dominate your reasoning abilities. In my opinion, in any discussion of important matters it is reason, not passion, that is most important.

[FatAndFaithless]

But argument and conflict are a part of life, especially when dealing with things about which you're passionate. One can be passionately energetic and assertive in an argument without insulting or trolling or something like that. I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect people to remain in some sort of formal polite calm bubble when discussing important things.

And why is that? If you do not remain polite, and calm, then you have most likely allowed your passions to dominate your reasoning abilities. In my opinion, in any discussion of important matters it is reason, not passion, that is most important.

Because people aren't robots, they speak and act with passion when it comes to things they care about. Passion and reason are not mutually exclusive, you can calm and soft spoken or loud, brash and assertive, but as long as the logic of the arguments is well-presented, it's the same argument. I'm sure you've gotten upset or angry over a point of discussion or disagreement at some time in your life, and may have used strong words to express your opinion that didn't fall into the sanitized categories of 'calm and polite'. That wouldn't and doesn't invalidate someone's point just because they make it strongly or pssionately.

[zanOTK]

And why is that? If you do not remain polite, and calm, then you have most likely allowed your passions to dominate your reasoning abilities. In my opinion, in any discussion of important matters it is reason, not passion, that is most important.

Because people aren't robots, they speak and act with passion when it comes to things they care about. Passion and reason are not mutually exclusive, you can calm and soft spoken or loud, brash and assertive, but as long as the logic of the arguments is well-presented, it's the same argument. I'm sure you've gotten upset or angry over a point of discussion or disagreement at some time in your life, and may have used strong words to express your opinion that didn't fall into the sanitized categories of 'calm and polite'. That wouldn't and doesn't invalidate someone's point just because they make it strongly or pssionately.

It does, however, make it a lot less likely the other party will listen. I have allowed my passion to sway me in the past, and regret it dearly. When one becomes impassioned in an argument, especially when they begin using impolite wording, I am less likely to listen to what they have to say, and my respect for them drops greatly. Not everyone reacts this way. But it is rare, very rare, that someone will react that way if you remain totally polite. And that is why I attempt to remain polite and without passion in my discussions with those that disagree with me. Now, if I am talking to someone who agrees with me I will often become quite passionate. But it is a different sort of passion, that doesn't risk my being impolite to those around me.

[FatAndFaithless]

Because people aren't robots, they speak and act with passion when it comes to things they care about. Passion and reason are not mutually exclusive, you can calm and soft spoken or loud, brash and assertive, but as long as the logic of the arguments is well-presented, it's the same argument. I'm sure you've gotten upset or angry over a point of discussion or disagreement at some time in your life, and may have used strong words to express your opinion that didn't fall into the sanitized categories of 'calm and polite'. That wouldn't and doesn't invalidate someone's point just because they make it strongly or pssionately.

It does, however, make it a lot less likely the other party will listen. I have allowed my passion to sway me in the past, and regret it dearly. When one becomes impassioned in an argument, especially when they begin using impolite wording, I am less likely to listen to what they have to say, and my respect for them drops greatly. Not everyone reacts this way. But it is rare, very rare, that someone will react that way if you remain totally polite. And that is why I attempt to remain polite and without passion in my discussions with those that disagree with me. Now, if I am talking to someone who agrees with me I will often become quite passionate. But it is a different sort of passion, that doesn't risk my being impolite to those around me.

Alllllrighty..