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RE: Is free will real?
December 20, 2014 at 8:37 am
(This post was last modified: December 20, 2014 at 8:43 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(December 20, 2014 at 1:24 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Without free-will, there is no such thing as praise. Without free-will, you can't even thank your parents. I don't think free will is a factor in this praise and thanks business regardless of whether or not it exists. I see no requirement, and if we didn't have free will we are, at least, still observably praising and thanking each other (that much we know, eh?).
-as an aside....I have no idea what this free will business accomplishes, what it's supposed to do or what we think it's doing, or how it's accomplished. Every time someone describes free will to me it takes all of 30 seconds to imagine a machine that's capable of -precisely the same effect-. For example, the above needs a few seven segment displays to scroll simple praising and thanking text.....and that's about it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is free will real?
December 20, 2014 at 10:15 am
(This post was last modified: December 20, 2014 at 10:15 am by Whateverist.)
(December 20, 2014 at 1:24 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Without free-will, there is no such thing as praise. Without free-will, you can't even thank your parents.
Most of the kids I've ever heard say thank you did not sound as if the decision to do so came freely from them. Yet plenty of thank you's get delivered. Thanking doesn't seem to have all that much to do with free will. Thanking is a culturally transmitted phenomenon more easily sustained in a hive than by a loose collection of autonomous agents.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 20, 2014 at 1:40 pm
And habit due to such.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm
How can an action be praiseworthy if free-will was not involved?
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RE: Is free will real?
December 20, 2014 at 8:25 pm
(This post was last modified: December 20, 2014 at 8:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Like praise..praiseworthiness doesn't seem to have any obvious connection to free will. Is it the free will or the actions which you are praising? If something is done out of instinct, habit, or training -and not free will- is it any less praiseworthy?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Is free will real?
December 20, 2014 at 8:59 pm
If there's no free will, praise, like everything else, is just a meaningless description in objective terms. It means something to us because we observe at our zoomed out level.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 21, 2014 at 1:07 am
(This post was last modified: December 21, 2014 at 1:09 am by bennyboy.)
(December 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: How can an action be praiseworthy if free-will was not involved? A car is praiseworthy because it functions excellently by the standards of the people using it, not because it has "really" chosen to do so. When a person behaves in a way which demonstrates a high level of function in the eyes of other people, that person is called praiseworthy.
Is the person responsible for his own high level of functionality? No. But he's still praiseworthy.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 21, 2014 at 4:20 am
(This post was last modified: December 21, 2014 at 4:21 am by Alex K.)
(December 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: How can an action be praiseworthy if free-will was not involved?
How can an action be praise-worthy if free will was involved?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Is free will real?
December 21, 2014 at 10:34 am
(December 21, 2014 at 4:20 am)Alex K Wrote: (December 20, 2014 at 8:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: How can an action be praiseworthy if free-will was not involved? How can an action be praise-worthy if free will was involved? Free will involves the ability to make a choice. A true hero, say running into a fire to save a child, would be "praiseworthy". I am sure there are other examples, but this should do for now.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Is free will real?
December 21, 2014 at 10:49 am
(This post was last modified: December 21, 2014 at 10:51 am by Alex K.)
(December 21, 2014 at 10:34 am)IATIA Wrote: (December 21, 2014 at 4:20 am)Alex K Wrote: How can an action be praise-worthy if free will was involved? Free will involves the ability to make a choice. A true hero, say running into a fire to save a child, would be "praiseworthy". I am sure there are other examples, but this should do for now.
Why would then such an action be more or less praiseworthy depending on whether or not the world were completely deterministic without any free will?
Obviously, people are able to make choices in this world (otherwise, the concept of choice would not exist), and from the fact that we do not consider this proof that there is free will, I conclude that in common usage these two concepts are not directly tied to one another, and people would be able to make choices in a world without free will according to the usual definitions of the term, whatever they are.
One can then always take a step back and ask why someone with or without free will chooses to be a hero. Can you point me to a place in this chain where the distinction of free will or no free will comes in to determine why one scenario is more laudable than the other?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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