Just another gun thread, don't bother reading.

[Losty]

@esqui, how do you propose laws like Australia's would be enforced in the US considering that there are already more guns than people and no one with guns has any interest to register or give them up?

How do you stop people from selling their own guns to people who are not registered or licensed?

*ETA: I know you didn't specifically say we should change out laws to the ones Australia has, but I'm still curious about your answer to the questions.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I will be buying a shotgun shortly. I live out in the country, and had this show up about a hundred feet from my driveway a couple of weeks back:

We also have cougars in the area; I've seen their tracks around. I am about 30 minutes from the nearest sheriff's substation, and would like to be able to take care of myself.

I'm uncomfortable with handguns, and have never owned one.

I think the solution to handgun access is smart-guns: using RFID or biometric readers to ensure that the finger pulling the trigger belongs to someone who has passed a background check. Violent felonies would be an automatic block, of course, and if a person is on medication for mental disorders, I'm think that too should be cause for rejection. It's not foolproof, but i think if we do that, along with a phased turn-in for dumb guns, in a couple of generations we can have handgun ownership in this country down to manageable levels.

But until then, I'll be getting me a Winchester or Mossberg shotgun shortly.

[Losty]

Is that a fox?

I recently read a compilation of every reported cougar attack in the US and Canada from 1970-1990. I will never live somewhere with cougars. Never. Ever.

[Esquilax]

@esqui, how do you propose laws like Australia's would be enforced in the US considering that there are already more guns than people and no one with guns has any interest to register or give them up?

See, that's the thing: I think America's gotten itself into a near intractable situation in that regard, mostly due to the psychology around gun ownership there. Now that there's a good, long period of time in place where gun ownership has been this fundamental, baked in part of the American political makeup, now that it's this cultural signifier for freedom and the American Way, now that a certain segment of the population has made this issue their battle line which cannot be crossed, I don't exactly see an easy way to a better situation. The people who believe most firmly that gun ownership is core to being American are exactly the same people who will not listen to reason and budge even an inch, and who will respond to attempts at change by concocting oversimplified, exaggerated stories to make it harder, politically, to actually enact any decent legislation (the gun control issue would be a lot easier to resolve if you didn't have the "Obama's gunna take yur gurns!" folks stirring up the other idiots and turning this into a partisan political issue, rather than a commonsense one.)

I don't know that there is a way to enact laws like Australia has in the current American climate. I know what a reasonable compromise is, but I also know that the segment of Americans that will be most affected by that are the least likely to even entertain the possibility of compromise at all, regardless of the actual content of it.

How do you stop people from selling their own guns to people who are not registered or licensed?

Yeah, this is another thing where differing cultural values will have an impact on the system; by and large Australians don't have this desperate need to own guns that Americans seem to. There are penalties for selling guns to the unlicensed (arms dealing is kind of a big deal, and if you sell a firearm you acquired legally you've got a paper trail leading right back to you, and the kind of person who's going to illegally purchase a firearm rather than go through the legal channels probably isn't going to be out of the law's attention for long) but mostly it's a non-issue because there isn't the market for guns that there is in America, nor is there this prideful need to skirt laws we disagree with. I think the gun ownership level is at like five percent in Aus, and the majority of that is not due to the fact that the laws prevent us from easily obtaining them.

America though? Different reaction entirely, I'd imagine. The way that country grew up and matured has probably made it inhospitable to reasonable gun laws. It's not a change you're gonna be able to make without a long period of adjustment beforehand.

[Losty]

Well, hell, if you agree with me maybe my opinion isn't really as unpopular as I thought. I just need to stop talking to 99% of Americans altogether I think.

[Thumpalumpacus]

A fair thing to say. I've had this discussion both irl and on other boards and the mild proposal I made above regarding smart guns faced very heavy sledding. The only apparent reason was the slippery-slope fallacy -- but when you start talking about fallacious reasoning, your interlocutors tune you out.

Ditto with the "guns keep government honest" crowd. Nowadays, given the technology fielded not only by the military but also local police forces, your gun will not ensure jack-shit. But mention that in a discussion, and see how many Red Dawn tropes pop out of the woodwork.

I'm all for gun rights, but I think it's imperative that we work to making sure gun owners are sound of mind, and legitimate.

Christ, we register autos and have to test for driver's licenses.

---

Oh, and Losty, that's a coyote. They're usually pretty cowardly, but a hungry pack can be dangerous, as can a rabid individual.

[Esquilax]

Ditto with the "guns keep government honest" crowd.

Now that is a line of reasoning that completely horrifies me, as when you look past the appealing dress-up, what it actually says is "I wish to menace government employees so that they only do the things I approve of."

[Losty]

This isn't fucking Guatemala. There's no such thing as a militia that can take on the US military.

[Brakeman]

What you should do is to make ammunition regulated. Guns are harmless and easy to make. Ammunition is the thing that makes it dangerous, and that can't be made easily.

???
I've been making my own bullets since I was about 13 years old. I can make every part in my basement. I generally wouldn't need to make my brass because that can be reused hundreds of times. I make my own black powder and cast my own bullets. The primer is a bit of a pain but match heads can be used in a pinch. I have used cut out roll caps before as well. I've tried to make Lead styphnate once but didn't work. I think my instructions were bad. I'd like to try again some day.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/default.asp

[Minimalist]

"Fun regulation"

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They could pass a law telling people to turn their guns in and then any who did not would no longer be "law-abiding gun owners" so, fuck 'em.

So to translate:

Losty:How would they take all the guns?

Mini: They can't.

Did I read that right?

They did it in Australia.