General argument for Islam.

[Joods]

I'm not convinced. Until the mysterious maker in the sky comes down to me, stands before me and speaks directly to me, my views will remain unchanged. I simply cannot subscribe to any religious book that was not written by any god, but written by man and directs people to accept that it is what it is and that's it. That kind of thinking is just dangerous.

I know that the revelatory episode you describe is far and away more convincing than any 1400 year old dictation. But why would you accept that evidence? I'm not a valid judge of what constitutes a true theophany and not some bad snails I had for dinner the previous evening.

Let's not even get started on you being scammed by a demon.
I'd say that seeing God on a golden chariot emerging from a cloudless sky is best explained (in order of descending likelihood) as:
1) delusion
2) illusion
3) Alex K trying out some of his more convincing physics tricks that we don't know about.

Until God gives me equal powers so that I can see He's not pulling yet another confidence trick, I'm not buying.

Though to be honest, you did say you'd be 'changing your view' and not swallowing hook, line and sinker.

I'm not expecting a golden chariot. Heck, he could show up as a regular guy and ring my doorbell and sit down and have a chat. But it would take more than that to convince me because people have knocked on my door before to "tell me how JC has changed their lives" and I'm still not interested.

God should eradicate disease and yes, there's that whole regrowing of the limbs thing...
He hasn't supposedly spoken to "his people" for over 2000 years. He shouldn't keep them waiting. And since he hasn't shown himself to his people, I'm honestly not sure how I would react if I stood face to face with him.

[Surgenator]

Alex is physics magician!?

[Mudhammam]

Only when he is wearing the magic codpiece.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I understand your concepts.
Why is the Koran totally different than the Bible which preceded it by up to thousands of years?

Actually the Bible and the Koran were written about the same time. The books of the Bible might have been written much earlier but they were not compiled into a single book until the English did it as a gift to the Pope. Some say that Jerome did it much earlier but that's just to make the myth more believable.

Uthman got a committee to write the Koran. The hadiths were written decades and centuries after Mohammed supposedly bit the dust.

The basic doctrine of the Koran is based upon the Ten Commandments found in Exodus chapter 34. Whereas the Bible is racist to the core the Koran skips the racism and just sticks to being a general pain in the ass to all non-believers.

[Mudhammam]

Actually the Bible and the Koran were written about the same time. The books of the Bible might have been written much earlier but they were not compiled into a single book until the English did it as a gift to the Pope. Some say that Jerome did it much earlier but that's just to make the myth more believable.

Wrong on all accounts.
http://codexsinaiticus.org
Written over 1,600 years ago, it contains the complete New Testament and about half of the Old Testament and Apocrypha (from the Septuagint).

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Pretty sure Allah does not like atheists.

Did you notice how he says about a hundred times in the Quran how non believers will face a fiery doom?

---

Christianity: "My religion is true, all others are false, non believers are going to hell. I got this amazing book which is the word of god. Only this book, others are fake."

Islam: "My religion is true, all others are false, non believers are going to hell. I got this amazing book which is the word of god. Only this book, others are fake."

---

Sure, the Koran says that non-believers will face a fiery doom. But that's also exactly what the Jesus character said in John 15:6. (NLT) = "Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned."

The Koran might use harsher language but it says the same thing as that.

---

Actually the Bible and the Koran were written about the same time. The books of the Bible might have been written much earlier but they were not compiled into a single book until the English did it as a gift to the Pope. Some say that Jerome did it much earlier but that's just to make the myth more believable.

Wrong on all accounts.
http://codexsinaiticus.org
Written over 1,600 years ago, it contains the complete New Testament and about half of the Old Testament and Apocrypha (from the Septuagint).

This is 2015. Sixteen hundred (1600) years ago would be around 400 AD. The Koran was written between 644-656 when Uthman was caliph.

Because the Codex Sinaiticus was discovered in the 19th Century it's most likely a fraud that was written well before 400 AD. We do know that the Codex Amiatinus was the real deal. It was written after 692 and three copies were commissioned. One copy was given to the Pope, who didn't have a Bible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Amiatinus

So both the Bible and the Koran could have been written as complete books around the same time using various manuscripts and oral stories and pure BS.

Produce an actual Bible before the year 700 other than the Codex Amiatinus.

[WinterHold]

Hello MysticKnight.

It's by logic that we know there exist the best of humans who reached sublime ranks and raced ahead of others in good deeds. It's by logic that we know these people would be special in God's eyes. They being guided and their path being straight, are, the best people equipped to lead humanity.

As long as they keep their faith & good deeds ; but nobody is "special" in the Shia fashion : being a shiny Imam that is untouchable and infinitely guided by god, they're not so special, if anybody did what they did the penalty would be the same.

It's enough, how the Quran talked about Mohammed peace be upon himself, warning him :

( 44 ) And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings,
( 45 ) We would have seized him by the right hand;
( 46 ) Then We would have cut from him the aorta.
( 47 ) And there is no one of you who could prevent [Us] from him.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

He isn't so "special" after all.

For example, this verse where Mohammed peace be upon him was tempted to listen to a group of heathens & change the Quran :

( 74 ) And if We had not strengthened you, you would have almost inclined to them a little.
( 75 ) Then [if you had], We would have made you taste double [punishment in] life and double [after] death. Then you would not find for yourself against Us a helper.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

That's not a treatment of "a guided special Imam". He ain't special ; since punishment & shame awaits him if he went astray.

The theme of what God does with his best servants is in Quran, and the way he honored them, speaks of a praise and exalted grace of God, mercy, and love, and God is ever bountiful! This praise of God on how he treats his best friends and masters upon creations, has a hidden wisdom, that is manifest through how God actually acted with many of these honorable people, and this how God proves the basis of his religion.

God doesn't have human friends, MysticKnight, and the Quran actually answers this straightforwardly, having a verse which literally says :

( 59 ) Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
( 60 ) The truth is from your Lord, so do not be among the doubters.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

Thus, nobody is special. If Jesus peace be upon him himself, to god, is a creation of cosmic dust, then what gives anymore credit to Mohammed peace be upon him or the Imams ?

Eventually, we shall all bow to god in hell :

( 71 ) And there is none of you except he will come to it. This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed.
( 72 ) Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

The pure sinless servants of God are those who God after initiating in the unseen fulfillment of God's words, brings a descended form of their path, and wisdom, and guidance to the nations.

Where in the Quran ? the underline sentence ? please mysticknight, guide me to that verse which proves it.

Noah peace be upon him, had a heathen son who was drowned :

( 42 ) And it sailed with them through waves like mountains, and Noah called to his son who was apart [from them], "O my son, come aboard with us and be not with the disbelievers."
( 43 ) [But] he said, "I will take refuge on a mountain to protect me from the water." [Noah] said, "There is no protector today from the decree of Allah, except for whom He gives mercy." And the waves came between them, and he was among the drowned.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

Another verse about the descendants and their types exactly :

( 32 ) Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.
( 33 ) [For them are] gardens of perpetual residence which they will enter. They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls, and their garments therein will be silk.
( 34 ) And they will say, "Praise to Allah, who has removed from us [all] sorrow. Indeed, our Lord is Forgiving and Appreciative -
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

I don't see any "guided imams" in there. Rather, this concept you present, dates back to the civil war between Ali & the Ummayads ; and has nothing to do with the Quran.

God sent Prophets with the ultimate mission to bring humanity out of the darkness to the light and conduct themselves with justice, and he sent the final religion that it dominates all religions. But the pure religion and the truth of it and the wisdom, is not known to all, but rather, the remembrance is safeguarded through an Imam who has a perfect understanding of the religion and the wisdom revealed to Mohammad. That religion is safeguarded from corruption.

It is known and open to all ; in a book of 600 pages called the Quran, which you can view online.
It's not a secret shared by a cult of Imams, who move us left & right according to what they see fit. This is so similar to the Christian concept of Jesus and his saints.

The Quran talks about witnesses from each people, and states we will be called with a witness that will witness against us that was among us, and another verses say we will be called with our Imam.

Imam in Arabic, also means book.

( 71 ) [Mention, O Muhammad], the Day We will call forth every people with their record [of deeds]. Then whoever is given his record in his right hand - those will read their records, and injustice will not be done to them, [even] as much as a thread [inside the date seed].
( 72 ) And whoever is blind in this [life] will be blind in the Hereafter and more astray in way.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

Which matches other verses, that speak about how each person would be called to his/her record of deeds :

( 18 ) That Day, you will be exhibited [for judgement]; not hidden among you is anything concealed.
( 19 ) So as for he who is given his record in his right hand, he will say, "Here, read my record!
( 20 ) Indeed, I was certain that I would be meeting my account."
( 21 ) So he will be in a pleasant life -
( 22 ) In an elevated garden,
( 23 ) Its [fruit] to be picked hanging near.
( 24 ) [They will be told], "Eat and drink in satisfaction for what you put forth in the days past."
( 25 ) But as for he who is given his record in his left hand, he will say, "Oh, I wish I had not been given my record
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh


Arabic dictionary for the word Imam :
http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/اَلاِمَام/

الإِمامُ : الكِتاب

Ultimately, God always wanted people to accept his Mastership and authority and guidance, through his chosen ones, so it makes sense he will safeguard a chosen one among his creation, for the end of times, when humanity will accept the truth and follow it.

That is called "Shirk". We need no middlemen . The Quran says about this:

( 186 ) And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh


He didn't tell us to pray to imams, or communicate with him -like the ancient heathens of arabia- through middlemen & idols ; like the Shia muslims do today "praying to god through hussain & Ali".

The Mahdi has been said to be from the Ahlulbayt, because the Ahlulbayt is how God wanted to bring the cause, the affair, and unity of the chosen successors of Mohammad, so he put them in offspring from one another, like he did in the past with his chosen ones, and made them a chosen family in which we love not individually but all together, and tied that love with the Messenger.

Why jump to the Mahdi ?
Did you tell everybody where the Mahdi story originates from ?

It's not Quranic btw , yet as the curse dictates : it's sourced from the Hadith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi


Muhammad is quoted as saying about the Mahdi:

His name will be my name, and his father’s name my father’s name[7]

Even if the entire duration of the world’s existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left before Doomsday, Allah will expand that day to such length of time as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then).[11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19]

So, as usual, the hadith ruined the Quran's message, to turn it into another christianity, with a "muslim jesus" coming in the end of time to bring back justice.

Where did god promise this in the Quran, if you live up to the same sentence you mentioned in the intro, MysticKnight, of you seeing the Quran as the only holly book ?

The wisdom of him being from Ahlulbayt is in Quran, in the verses about chosen offspring and chosen families, so God made this wisdom a proof upon all people.

Just as a note ; this guy is Mohammed's uncle :

( 1 ) May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.
( 2 ) His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.
( 3 ) He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame
( 4 ) And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood.
( 5 ) Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh


So the ahlu-bayt theory already received a huge hit from the Quran, knowing that mohammed's relatives are no difference, yet some are the enemy.

The only verse in the Quran, which mentioned ahlu- al bayt was :

( 32 ) O wives of the Prophet, you are not like anyone among women #if you wanted to fear allah(#missing translation of the word ان اتقيتن Which I fixed). If you fear Allah, then do not be soft in speech [to men], lest he in whose heart is disease should covet, but speak with appropriate speech.
( 33 ) And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

So ahlu al bayt -according the verse not me- are the wives of Mohammed, who brought ali, hussain & mahdi along ? who gave them the free invite ?

As you and I can guess : SHIA MUSLIMS. With no evidence. The Quran, mysticknight, never said it.

And hence, even for ahlu al bayt :

( 4 ) If you two [wives] repent to Allah, [it is best], for your hearts have deviated. But if you cooperate against him - then indeed Allah is his protector, and Gabriel and the righteous of the believers and the angels, moreover, are [his] assistants.
( 5 ) Perhaps his Lord, if he divorced you [all], would substitute for him wives better than you - submitting [to Allah], believing, devoutly obedient, repentant, worshipping, and traveling - [ones] previously married and virgins.
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh


So much for the ahlu-bayet theory ; god threatening them with kicking them out of mohammed's house and replace them with better wives.

So much for "the father" of the imams ; mohammed, being threatened again in god in the verse I mentioned above, if he went astray.

And the warning of god, that Shia & Sunni Muslims ignored :

( 77 ) Say, "O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way."
http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#a...rans=en_sh

[RobertE]

Nothing personal Atlas, but wouldn't it be better to spoiler those quotes, because they do take up a great deal of space and it doesn't make it easier for the reader. Or perhaps, why not just offer a summary of what the quote is trying to tell us. Many thanks chap.

[WinterHold]

Nothing personal Atlas, but wouldn't it be better to spoiler those quotes, because they do take up a great deal of space and it doesn't make it easier for the reader. Or perhaps, why not just offer a summary of what the quote is trying to tell us. Many thanks chap.

I appreciate your advice, but which quotes do you mean the Quranic or the writer's ?

[RobertE]

Nothing personal Atlas, but wouldn't it be better to spoiler those quotes, because they do take up a great deal of space and it doesn't make it easier for the reader. Or perhaps, why not just offer a summary of what the quote is trying to tell us. Many thanks chap.

I appreciate your advice, but which quotes do you mean the Quranic or the writer's ?

The Quranic quotes. This is just not directed at Islam, but also biblical quotes too. It just makes it easier on the eyes.