Religion is a Delusion/Mental Illness

[Cyberman]

I'm trying very hard here to be a good man and commenting merely to say I decline to comment on your exceedingly sensitive and helpful observation.

[Dystopia]

I think religions are wrong, but I don't believe religious people (the majority of them) are mentally ill. To argue that religion is a mental illness brings two primary problems - (1) It is massively dehumanizing (2) more important, it requires scientific research and evidence - Coming to an internet forum and posting about it isn't going to change anything. Having a mental illness can have a tremendous impact on people's lives and calling someone mentally ill for being religious is dismissive of people who actually suffer from psychological/mental disorders

Religious people have it wrong in one belief, that's it - There's no purpose in being super happy just because you got one thing right. Human beings are capable of committing violence and atrocities regardless of what they believe in - No one is safe or holds high moral ground.

[Whateverist]

I'm not even willing to say "they have it wrong" on that one belief. It depends entirely on what they think a god may be. If it amounts to something like their projection of god and it is their intent to carry on as if god really is in the world, then they don't have it wrong. Or else all actors while in role are making a mistake which ends only when they drop out of character.

[Cephus]

I'm going to butt in here with the practical reason why you shouldn't call religious belief a mental illness: The majority of people (at least in the USA) have religious beliefs. They have more voting power than we do. If you call them insane, you will just piss them off. That's important because if we want to be accepted, if we want atheists to be viable candidates for public office, we can't be making blanket statements like this - even if it's true.

How far would blacks have gotten in the civil rights movement if they dissed all non-blacks? How far would the homosexuals have gotten if they dissed all straights?

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That is, of course, the argument from consequences, a logical fallacy.  Either religion is a mental illness or it is not.  The goal is to find the reality, not to worry about the potential consequences.

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I would like to see the demographics of religion in the US and other countries. I think that secularism is on the rise everywhere.

It is indeed. Polls in the US indicate a slow but sure increase in secularism and a corresponding drop in Christianity. That's good news. Christians still rule in this country, though and we need to act accordingly. Failure to do so would be denying reality  - the same thing we accuse Christians of doing.

It's not that slow, secularism and an attendant rise in moderate and liberal religiosity are on a dramatic rise in the past 15-20 years.  Just from memory, the "nones" have risen from about 3% to more than 20% in that time.  32% of people under 30 are irreligious and this is growing.  The majority of hard-core theists are elderly and will die off in the short term, further increasing the non-religious numbers.  I never thought I'd see this kind of thing, but for such a fundamental social change, this is utterly amazing.  Within 20-30 years, it's entirely conceivable that the majority of Americans will be either irreligious or minimally religious.

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I am not calling them insane.

But the reality is that they are mentally unstable to a particular degree, especially since they are believing in something with no evidence to substantiate it.  It takes a particular degree of absence from reality to cling to a belief system that has a clear association with fiction.

It all depends on how you define insanity.  I don't tend to call them insane but they certainly are  deluded and irrational, more so as you go up the religious ladder.  The more religious one tends to be, the more unstable and irrational they tend to be and the less we ought to trust their judgement.

[Pyrrho]

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Religious people have it wrong in one belief, that's it...

No, there is a whole set of beliefs that are wrong.  One does not handle snakes or speak in tongues or even just attend church from the bare belief that there exists at least one god.


Think how people would react to someone who had an invisible friend, who he claimed would magically protect him from poisonous snakes, and so he handled poisonous snakes in ways that do not prevent the snakes from biting, if it were not connected to Christianity.  Is that something a sane person would do?  

Think about someone who ritually eats the body and blood of another man.  And who believes this to be of profound importance.  And imagine him actually believing it is really the body and blood that he is eating, that was magically transformed from bread and wine (see the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, which is official doctrine today).  Imagine how people would react, if that were not a part of mainstream religion.

The ONLY reason such people are not thought of as crazy is because they are a part of a huge group of people who have related beliefs and practices.  If there were only one Christian in the world (and to keep us from going to any extremes, let us say a mainstream Catholic who believes all official church doctrine), and if there were no history of millions of Christians, it is hard to see how anyone would not suppose the person was completely mad.

By comparison, a person who believes the CIA is trying to read his mind and so he wears a tinfoil hat, is believing something less inherently ridiculous than mainstream religion.  At least the CIA actually exists, and they do try to find out what people are up to.

Religion is not merely one belief that is in error, it is thinking going terribly, terribly wrong.  One false belief does not create a religion.

[Tonus]

LOL, when I went through my rough spot my issues made me -more- proficient at my job, and much more socially acceptable to my peers.

You were... a congressman?

[The Grand Nudger]

-theres a range of jobs on that continuum, I suppose, if a person looks hard enough, eh, lol?  Infantry Tonus...infantry.

[Dystopia]

No, there is a whole set of beliefs that are wrong.  One does not handle snakes or speak in tongues or even just attend church from the bare belief that there exists at least one god.

You are assuming that believing snakes can factually talk is part of mainstream Christian beliefs - Maybe for evangelists and bible literalists but from my experience all Catholic priests I've met (more than 10) reject literal interpretations and think talking snakes is a logical impossibility. I would agree that literally believing in talking snakes and other wishful nonsense would be very close to a mental diseases but that is not the case for most Christians who don't even read the bible or go to church that often.

Think how people would react to someone who had an invisible friend, who he claimed would magically protect him from poisonous snakes, and so he handled poisonous snakes in ways that do not prevent the snakes from biting, if it were not connected to Christianity.  Is that something a sane person would do?  

Since I like honest debate I'm going to tell you right away that you're making an overly gross simplistic definition with an appeal to ridicule in the mix.

Another problem is that it can be applied to just any ideology - Everything is a product of its historical, cultural and social context, so it's not productive to spend time wondering what Christianity wouldn't have been if X or Y didn't come into play.

Think about someone who ritually eats the body and blood of another man.  And who believes this to be of profound importance.  And imagine him actually believing it is really the body and blood that he is eating, that was magically transformed from bread and wine (see the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, which is official doctrine today).  Imagine how people would react, if that were not a part of mainstream religion.

Grand nonsense, even though there is no such thing as an official doctrine everyone must follow - You can be a Catholic because you are baptised and completely despise the church and the pope (it's what my mom used to do before deconverting). I completely get the part that some practises, miracles and rituals would be batshit crazy if it wasn't for religion and I'm not trying to be an apologist but those silly superstitions are not the definition of religion per se but rather some simple fundamental core beliefs that unite a group of people - In the case of Christianity it is the belief that you will go to heaven for following Jesus. I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead and I find that highly unlikely, but I don't think someone believing in it makes them crazy - Be aware that nurture and culture highly influence who you are - I would probably not be an atheist if I was, for example, black and poor (in my country).

The ONLY reason such people are not thought of as crazy is because they are a part of a huge group of people who have related beliefs and practices.  If there were only one Christian in the world (and to keep us from going to any extremes, let us say a mainstream Catholic who believes all official church doctrine), and if there were no history of millions of Christians, it is hard to see how anyone would not suppose the person was completely mad.

Again, this can be applied to any ideology - I'm thinking about some theories about the invisible hand and the free market - Does anyone think Adam Smith was mentally ill for believing it would work? - Are National-Socialists (nazis) mentally ill? They are bigots but they are not necessarily mentally retarded, being a racist or dumb does not make you ill.

By comparison, a person who believes the CIA is trying to read his mind and so he wears a tinfoil hat, is believing something less inherently ridiculous than mainstream religion.  At least the CIA actually exists, and they do try to find out what people are up to.

Religion is not merely one belief that is in error, it is thinking going terribly, terribly wrong.  One false belief does not create a religion.

Correct, but atheists make overwhelming assumptions about the number of beliefs and dogmas religious people have. Richard Dawkins and his fan club probably imagines most Christians as avid bible readers, everyday prayers who believe in most of the bible and go to church regularly or were severely indoctrinated. This is not reality, it is a fantasy irrational belief - Most Christians rarely step foot inside churches and don't read the bible that often and many don't even value the Old Testament aside from a few prophecies.. the only core belief is that you'll go to heaven if you believe and follow Jesus of Nazareth. Seriously, you don't even need to read the bible and you are no less Christian than literalists - Bible literalism in particular is very rare (unless it's in America) because Catholicism values academic education for priests and other church members and thus scientific knowledge and philosophy are important fields of study.

When you talk about believing in talking snakes you are talking about a specific denomination/church with specific beliefs, not Christianity as a whole. You can find liberal commie Christians and far-right fascist Christians. They can be as diverse as any other social group.

If I may ask, since you are proposing people being thought as crazy (I hope you are asking about the clinical definition) does this mean any irrational belief with strong repercussions can be considered a disease? Would racists be mentally ill? What about men who think women should be put back in their place? what about people who think aliens definitely exist or that jews rule the world?

[Pyrrho]

Dystopia, just to clear up a couple of points.

The snake handlers are a rare group; here you can read about them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling

Here you can see them in action in a news story about them:






Speaking in tongues is discussed here, and it is far more common:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

You can see a little of it here in a news story:






As for Catholics who do not believe the official doctrines of the Catholic Church, you can, if you wish, join a church, pretending to believe, even if you are an atheist.  But in what sense are you a Catholic if you don't believe the doctrines of the Catholic Church?

And, of course, precisely what is going on will depend on the precise religion we are discussing, and if you regard people as being of a religion when they don't believe it, we would have to start looking at them individually to have a conversation of how crazy the person is.

But please do watch the videos, as they are interesting.

[z7z]

I don't think mental illness is a negative thing and I have no bias against people with mental illness (I have bipolar). It is what it is. Some people are born with mental illness just like you are born into a religious family. Believing in a God/Heaven/Hell/Angels/Demons/Witches is a delusion. Having delusions is a symptom of mental illness. I don't think that religion is literally a mental illness that needs treatment. They just need some atheist cognitive behavioral therapy to heal their brainwashing from growing up in a religious family/school.