Ask a Catholic

[Jenny A]

Let's say for the sake of argument that God did prevent the rape of one person...or prevent a murder of another. If He does that for one or two, wouldn't He be obligated to prevent every murder? Every rape? Divorce hurts people, too...what about preventing every divorce? Unemployment is bad....should God be obligated to prevent anyone from losing their job? Or falling on the playground and skinning their knees?

If God intervened in every situation that conceivably causes us pain, our lives would be so free from suffering that we would consider a hangnail to be a great injustice requiring God's intervention.

But at what point would God have to eliminate free will in order to accomplish this utopian existence? As disgusting as it is, God cannot stop the rapist or murderer without impinging on the free will of all mankind. Consequently, He allows the pain in order to respect the greater good.

And if we are not morally free to choose to rape or not rape, to kill or not kill, and we are forced to serve and obey God, why would we love Him since we had no other choice?

Randy, I know you're ignoring me (pussy) and won't see this, but maybe it'll get quoted and you'll have some food for thought.

Would you stop a murder or a rape? I would assume you would since, while I think you're a complete ass, I don't think you're evil. If you would stop a rape or a murder then you have a morality far superior to your gawd. If you wouldn't, you and your gawd deserve each other.

Your gawd is (allegedly) all powerful. Surely it could figure out a way to prevent rapists without violating their "free will."

^This^

[Randy Carson]

Let's say for the sake of argument that God did prevent the rape of one person...or prevent a murder of another. If He does that for one or two, wouldn't He be obligated to prevent every murder? Every rape? Divorce hurts people, too...what about preventing every divorce? Unemployment is bad....should God be obligated to prevent anyone from losing their job? Or falling on the playground and skinning their knees?

If God intervened in every situation that conceivably causes us pain, our lives would be so free from suffering that we would consider a hangnail to be a great injustice requiring God's intervention.

But at what point would God have to eliminate free will in order to accomplish this utopian existence? As disgusting as it is, God cannot stop the rapist or murderer without impinging on the free will of all mankind. Consequently, He allows the pain in order to respect the greater good.

And if we are not morally free to choose to rape or not rape, to kill or not kill, and we are forced to serve and obey God, why would we love Him since we had no other choice?

'But if I'm benevolent to one person, I'm gonna have to be benevolent to them all!'?

Have to? I thought god does what he wants

And I'm asking why is free will the greater good than no suffering?

Think about it.

Would you give up your free will in exchange for no suffering?

[Randy Carson]

Randy, I know you're ignoring me (pussy) and won't see this, but maybe it'll get quoted and you'll have some food for thought.

Would you stop a murder or a rape? I would assume you would since, while I think you're a complete ass, I don't think you're evil. If you would stop a rape or a murder then you have a morality far superior to your gawd. If you wouldn't, you and your gawd deserve each other.

Your gawd is (allegedly) all powerful. Surely it could figure out a way to prevent rapists without violating their "free will."

^This^

Jenny-

I have already answered this question in the post to which others have objected. Would any one of us fail to stop a rape or a person from getting hit by a bus? No, of course not. We prevent evil or injury whenever we can - sometimes in heroic fashion. (As an aside, perhaps you have not considered that the existence of evil gives us a chance to choose to be heroic or self-sacrificing or to grow in our willingness to serve others.)

However, our circumstances are very different from God's because we are not omnipotent and omniscient as He is. We are not in a position to know that the woman next door is being abused every night or that the child we see at the bus stop is going to school hungry. God can and does see everything, and He is in a position to do something about it.

But how would He do so? Would God simply remove the desire to rape the old woman living alone from the mind of the man who sees her leaving her garden door open? Then where is free will? It is eliminated. Would God allow the man to have the desire but not allow him to take one step in the direction of the house thereby allowing him to freely choose to rape but not allowing him to actually commit the rape? Is this really free will? This strikes me being somewhat akin to taking a child to a candy store and telling her that she can look but not touch. How would any of us feel about living life in that type of straight-jacket? How much resentment would that engender toward God who placed us in such confinement?

Finally, suppose God chose to protect the old woman by simply locking the door for her when she forgot or by sending a snarling dog who took up a post on her steps to dissuade the man from coming closer. These come closer to the types of approach that God would take, IMO.

In my previous post, I said that once God got Himself into the business of preventing one sort of evil or injury, it would be hard to find where to draw the line beyond which He would not be obligated to act since He has the ability to prevent ALL suffering.

The real impact of this, of course, would not be on God but on us, and we might soon find ourselves quite sickened by the Turkish Delight we would gobble down so eagerly at first.

[Mr.wizard]

^This^

Jenny-

I have already answered this question in the post to which others have objected. Would any one of us fail to stop a rape or a person from getting hit by a bus? No, of course not. We prevent evil or injury whenever we can - sometimes in heroic fashion. (As an aside, perhaps you have not considered that the existence of evil gives us a chance to choose to be heroic or self-sacrificing or to grow in our willingness to serve others.)

However, our circumstances are very different from God's because we are not omnipotent and omniscient as He is. We are not in a position to know that the woman next door is being abused every night or that the child we see at the bus stop is going to school hungry. God can and does see everything, and He is in a position to do something about it.

But how would He do so? Would God simply remove the desire to rape the old woman living alone from the mind of the man who sees her leaving her garden door open? Then where is free will? It is eliminated. Would God allow the man to have the desire but not allow him to take one step in the direction of the house thereby allowing him to freely choose to rape but not allowing him to actually commit the rape? Is this really free will? This strikes me being somewhat akin to taking a child to a candy store and telling her that she can look but not touch. How would any of us feel about living life in that type of straight-jacket? How much resentment would that engender toward God who placed us in such confinement?

Finally, suppose God chose to protect the old woman by simply locking the door for her when she forgot or by sending a snarling dog who took up a post on her steps to dissuade the man from coming closer. These come closer to the types of approach that God would take, IMO.

In my previous post, I said that once God got Himself into the business of preventing one sort of evil or injury, it would be hard to find where to draw the line beyond which He would not be obligated to act since He has the ability to prevent ALL suffering.

The real impact of this, of course, would not be on God but on us, and we might soon find ourselves quite sickened by the Turkish Delight we would gobble down so eagerly at first.

I'm sure a god the creator of heaven and earth could figure out how to get people to not rape each other.  If god is not going to intervene, then why do we have prayer? Prayer is essentially people asking god to intervene in their lives for one reason or another.

[Randy Carson]

Jenny-

I have already answered this question in the post to which others have objected. Would any one of us fail to stop a rape or a person from getting hit by a bus? No, of course not. We prevent evil or injury whenever we can - sometimes in heroic fashion. (As an aside, perhaps you have not considered that the existence of evil gives us a chance to choose to be heroic or self-sacrificing or to grow in our willingness to serve others.)

However, our circumstances are very different from God's because we are not omnipotent and omniscient as He is. We are not in a position to know that the woman next door is being abused every night or that the child we see at the bus stop is going to school hungry. God can and does see everything, and He is in a position to do something about it.

But how would He do so? Would God simply remove the desire to rape the old woman living alone from the mind of the man who sees her leaving her garden door open? Then where is free will? It is eliminated. Would God allow the man to have the desire but not allow him to take one step in the direction of the house thereby allowing him to freely choose to rape but not allowing him to actually commit the rape? Is this really free will? This strikes me being somewhat akin to taking a child to a candy store and telling her that she can look but not touch. How would any of us feel about living life in that type of straight-jacket? How much resentment would that engender toward God who placed us in such confinement?

Finally, suppose God chose to protect the old woman by simply locking the door for her when she forgot or by sending a snarling dog who took up a post on her steps to dissuade the man from coming closer. These come closer to the types of approach that God would take, IMO.

In my previous post, I said that once God got Himself into the business of preventing one sort of evil or injury, it would be hard to find where to draw the line beyond which He would not be obligated to act since He has the ability to prevent ALL suffering.

The real impact of this, of course, would not be on God but on us, and we might soon find ourselves quite sickened by the Turkish Delight we would gobble down so eagerly at first.

I'm sure a god the creator of heaven and earth could figure out how to get people to not rape each other.  If god is not going to intervene, then why do we have prayer? Prayer is essentially people asking god to intervene in their lives for one reason or another.

Well, I've not actually heard anyone pray, "And Lord, please protect Sister Mary Joseph from being raped as she walks back to her car after bingo tonight", but I suppose God would be open to the suggestion should anyone offer it up.

[Mr.wizard]

I'm sure a god the creator of heaven and earth could figure out how to get people to not rape each other.  If god is not going to intervene, then why do we have prayer? Prayer is essentially people asking god to intervene in their lives for one reason or another.

Well, I've not actually heard anyone pray, "And Lord, please protect Sister Mary Joseph from being raped as she walks back to her car after bingo tonight", but I suppose God would be open to the suggestion should anyone offer it up.

Really, you never heard of anyone pray for the safety of another?

[Randy Carson]

Well, I've not actually heard anyone pray, "And Lord, please protect Sister Mary Joseph from being raped as she walks back to her car after bingo tonight", but I suppose God would be open to the suggestion should anyone offer it up.

Really, you never heard of anyone pray for the safety of another?

Oh, sure. We just don't get quite that specific is all...

[Jenny A]

Jenny-

I have already answered this question in the post to which others have objected. Would any one of us fail to stop a rape or a person from getting hit by a bus? No, of course not. We prevent evil or injury whenever we can - sometimes in heroic fashion. (As an aside, perhaps you have not considered that the existence of evil gives us a chance to choose to be heroic or self-sacrificing or to grow in our willingness to serve others.)

It does indeed, but surely we could save drowning victims, stop our friends for driving drunk, and offer to take in the groceries.  

However, our circumstances are very different from God's because we are not omnipotent and omniscient as He is. We are not in a position to know that the woman next door is being abused every night or that the child we see at the bus stop is going to school hungry. God can and does see everything, and He is in a position to do something about it.

And when we do know, we do something about it is we can.  If there is a god, he always knows but does nothing.

But how would He do so? Would God simply remove the desire to rape the old woman living alone from the mind of the man who sees her leaving her garden door open? Then where is free will? It is eliminated. Would God allow the man to have the desire but not allow him to take one step in the direction of the house thereby allowing him to freely choose to rape but not allowing him to actually commit the rape? Is this really free will? This strikes me being somewhat akin to taking a child to a candy store and telling her that she can look but not touch. How would any of us feel about living life in that type of straight-jacket? How much resentment would that engender toward God who placed us in such confinement?

As long as he stuck to the biggies like rape, and murder, I doubt it would engender any resentment towards god except for those very few who actually want to rape and murder.  As it is society imposes rather severe penalties for those crimes.  Do you feel the state has unnecessarily impinged on your free will by outlawing such behavior?  Actions have consequences, god is in a position to make those consequences immediate and he would never punish an innocent man.  Smiting might be in order.  

Finally, suppose God chose to protect the old woman by simply locking the door for her when she forgot or by sending a snarling dog who took up a post on her steps to dissuade the man from coming closer. These come closer to the types of approach that God would take, IMO.

Ah yes, just so no one would know it was god.

In my previous post, I said that once God got Himself into the business of preventing one sort of evil or injury, it would be hard to find where to draw the line beyond which He would not be obligated to act since He has the ability to prevent ALL suffering.

Well if you are god and you insist on creating suffering the first place, and you are all godlike, surely you could come up with a plan.  The current plan appears to be allow lots of suffering some created by free will some by nature.  Once every 2000 years or so, heal a few people.  Once in a great while and only in the distant past smite someone for masturbating. If we judge god by the fruits of his plan, he's not a good god.

Rather than be angry at this evil god, I ask myself is there any evidence of a god with a plan at all.  There is not.

The real impact of this, of course, would not be on God but on us, and we might soon find ourselves quite sickened by the Turkish Delight we would gobble down so eagerly at first.

If the scenario reads death for masturbation or impure thoughts it might indeed.

[Mr.wizard]

Really, you never heard of anyone pray for the safety of another?

Oh, sure. We just don't get quite that specific is all...  

That wasn't really my point though, my point was in regard to god intervening in any instance. Your logic was if god stops one rape the he has to get involved in all of our problems. So does he not answer prayer? Because if he answers one prayer, lets say to cure a person from cancer then he would be obligated to get involved in all of our problems.

[Randy Carson]

Oh, sure. We just don't get quite that specific is all...  

That wasn't really my point though, my point was in regard to god intervening in any instance. Your logic was if god stops one rape the he has to get involved in all of our problems. So does he not answer prayer? Because if he answers one prayer, lets say to cure a person from cancer then he would be obligated to get involved in all of our problems.

As a Christian, I'm perfectly at peace (though not always content) with the idea that God prevents some rapes, cures some cancer, and answers some prayers even though I know that this means the converse is also true.

As an atheist, you are NOT at peace with this because you want ALL rape, ALL cancer and (presumably) ALL prayer answered. When you don't get your way, you deny that God exists because an all-knowing, all-loving and all-powerful God would be able to prevent pain and suffering. But pain and suffering exist so...

My response is simply that WE are not in a position to know whether God has sufficiently good reasons for allowing pain and suffering, so this is not the proof of God's non-existence that so many think that it is. Further, we have no way of judging the "butterfly effect" of any of these actions whereas God does and is more than capable of bringing the maximum amount of good out of any and all situations - no matter how horrific.

However, I have yet to see anyone propose how a world in which all suffering is eliminated without also eliminating our free will would actually function. Merely saying that "God ought to be able to figure it out" eliminates our need to think deeply, and it also overlooks the very real possibility that the way things are IS what God figured out.