Dad links son's suicide to 'The God Delusion'

[lukec]

Psalm, that's a cop out. It's the same as saying god did it, and doesn't make any sense.

Abiogenesis gives us clues to how life began, but that was the mastermind behind God's creation.

Not sure what you're trying to say here... First, there are many different hypotheses about abiogenesis, which one exactly was the mastermind behind God's creation?

[CoxRox]

Historical innacuracies? The bible is a collection of stories, written by (bare minimum) four different authors, and not a historical account. If the age of the earth is worked out through the bible geneologies (and this has been done by christians too, not only atheists) you get the typical answer of about 6000 years. Sometimes people will say there're gaps in the geneologies and extend that time to 10000. Of course, I realize that not everyone is a Young Earth Creationist, but there you have it. So there's a basic one.

The geneologies date the time period back to Adam. They do not date the creation of the earth which science confirms is billions of years old. Genesis starts with 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth'. The beginning was billions of years ago. So I see no contradiction here.

Another, you've already talked about- the order of beings being created (which is nonsense anyway) is simply wrong. Adam and Eve certainly didn't exist- so there was no "fall." If they did exist, we (humanity) would be descended from a single mating pair from 6000-10000 years ago, which would not even come CLOSE to explaining why we are so genetically diverse. It's flat out impossible.

I've yet to decide this. I'm wondering about the 'chicken and egg' problem. Maybe this will be explained in my books I'm reading. The bird and land animal thing is a seeming 'problem' granted.


Next big one; the flood. Now, geologists can go a looong way back through the geological strata and there is no data to support a Noachian flood. It is a myth. I know Daystar may say what he's said before- flood data could be misunderstood, or something similar. But that is so unlikely that it is impossible, and personally I would trust the opinions of the many many geologists who've worked in the field and actually looked at the data. A global flood would leave a layer of mud and silt at the exact same level all over the world when the waters receded (this raises the other issue, where exactly did the water go? We don't have enough ice on earth to explain that). But there is no such layer. Instead, all over the world the geological strata are in order, and geologists go back in history the lower they go in the strata.

Ok, there are Christians who believe the flood must have been local for all the reason you mention. They believe that 'the world' referred to was the area in the Middle East, and only here were there humans living. They hadn't spread out over the earth at that point?? I know this might look a bit convenient, or trying to make it fit, but it is a possibility.

As for contradictions, Chatpilot's right- the bible is rife with them. In the creation story itself Genesis 1 and 2 don't even agree about the order of created animals. And even if some of these contradictions don't turn out to be contradictions, many of them still are. How can you trust the rest as truth?

This is the only 'inaccuracy': the bird one. The other so called contradictions: the lights appearing (the sun, moon etc were already created, but there light couldn't shine due to dense cloud) I can supply a more detailed list of the apparent discrepancies and their explanations if any one is interested. For a very simplistic account, it does pretty well I think.

[AtheistPhil]

I think you're right. I'm not understaning your version of 'lack of evidence.' I'm not aware of any Police Officer, F.B.I Agent, or C.I.A Agent that only investigates half of the crime scene, and then they openly tell the Public, we have come to the conclusion that "lack of evidence" clears..so and so.. from scene of the crime.

The only thing the police will conclude with that "lack of evidence" is that they don't know if the guy is guilty.The lack of evidence only tells you that there's no reason right now to believe God exists or not.

I think that is a good idea. Because the Universe is one gigantic space.. I cannot see how you come to the conslusion of lack of evidence? Just because what we can explore shows no evidence of God, so that means he's not somewhere beyond every step we approach? How do you know? The entire Universe is not testable. No way, no how.

Lack of evidence is not a conclusion, it's a present statement. And as you said the entire universe is not testable so why conclude god DO exists ? and WHICH one ?

I made a claim God exists, and I have claimed God is the creator of the human race. We have evidence life generated itself from non-living to living. What caused this ruler of all species to start living? Nothing? How did "Something come from nothing?"

Even if you have evidence that life generated itself from non-living to living (I don't know if that's true, looks more like a hypothesis to me, but anyway), you just don't know if it came from nothing or anything else (how do you know living things doesn't come from non living ones ?). And even if it does what's the logical consequence to conclude that it proves God's existence?

I can prove God exists. That's easy. Only if you pay attention!
Proof of supernatural events;

God told Adam & Eve when they broke the Law, "You shall surely die!" Human-kind is the only species on Earth that knows in advance that it's going to die.

How can you be sure of this ? Even if it's true (I did learn this in school by the way), How do you know it's because God wanted it and not because we're the only one now on earth whose brains are enough developed to come to that conclusion ? ( by the way a young child doesn't know he's gonna die, he only understands the concept of death when he reached a certain age).
Moreover that doesn't prove the christian god exists, any "holy" book with a similar story could prove its god's existence then.

[Psalm 23]

You still don't get it!
Bloody hell! Sorry but my 5 year old cousin could understand what I said.

I agree, I would compare your "lack of evidence" arguement to a 5 year old, too.

Ok, this is my last attempt.

Thank goodness! Because I will repeat myself as much as it takes. This can go on and on....

Your claim is nothing but a hypothesis, why? Because nothing supports it. If you had evidence, I could challenge it by finding new evidence. Now I cannot dis-prove a negative. I had simply said, that you lack evidence and evidence means detectable material. Something that can be studied!

Maybe you are confusing yourself, and you are thinking too deeply into this? The Bible states very clearly, "No man shall see God and live." When are going to realize, God is a supernatural force that cannot be seen by mankind? If you are waiting for this evidence.. then you may be waiting until you leave this earth.. and then what? What if you were wrong?

Detectable materials. Exactly!! Stop and think!!! This is where you are confusing fantasy with reality. Do you believe God can be detected by man? When the Bible clearly says, "God cannot be (seen) detected?"

So, by you failing on proving gods existence, and have no knowledge about the meaning of the word "evidence", this debate cannot continue.

That's right, this debate is terminated until you can take provide "lack of evidence" as a solid arguement. lack of evidence cannot be declared when such a small amount of the universe can be explored. You are not thinking clearly on this subject. You are stuck in a rut, my friend..

I ask for evidence. You have brought none and so I dismiss your claim.

That's fine, but I also dismiss your claim. So, who wins?

So stop evading and bring the evidence, because so far, I've seen none.

See above ^^

A hypothesis like yours that has no evidence means it lacks evidence. Nothing supports it. If there was evidence, your god belief would be a theory instead of a hypothesis.

Keep searching..

Your claim lacks evidence. I'm not saying it dis-proves it or proves it. Just plain and simple LACK of EVIDENCE.

lack of evidence to only the small amount of the universe that is testable. What is beyond That cannot be explored?

You have nothing to support your claims. Nothing in this world, space or time that we have found supports your claims. So your claims lacks evidence.

You are repeating yourself.. No evidence, No evidence!!! lol. Keep investigating the scene. ((God cannot be seen by man))

Now, please try and understand that. Because this is becoming ridiculous really. Since you should know how evidence works.

Yes, I know how "lack of evidence" works. And you sure have a corrupt way of expressing your definition. I watch F.B.I documentaries, and I know when they claim "Lack of evidence" and when they do not.

And as of right now, you have only investigated a miniscule portion.

---

The other so called contradictions: the lights appearing

Now stop and think, what light appeared before the Sun was created?

[LukeMC]

Where is EvF when you need him/her?
S/he'd give Psalms a real mouthful on the burden of proof
You're the one with the evidence-less claims, why should WE be searching for anything?

EDIT: This is in response to:

Keep searching..

[Ace Otana]

I also dismiss your claim.

Can someone tell me what I claimed?

What did I claim?

[lukec]

Ok, there are Christians who believe the flood must have been local for all the reason you mention. They believe that 'the world' referred to was the area in the Middle East, and only here were there humans living. They hadn't spread out over the earth at that point?? I know this might look a bit convenient, or trying to make it fit, but it is a possibility.

That's exactly what it looks like- making it fit (and leads to the point, what else are you "making fit"). But it doesn't make sense. At the time of the noachian flood in the bible which is (regardless of how old the earth is from the genesis creation story) somewhere within the realm of 6 thousand to 10 thousand years, people were already spread out over every continent except antarctica. Also, the three main waves of human migration were out of Africa... not the Middle East.

This is the only 'inaccuracy': the bird one. The other so called contradictions: the lights appearing (the sun, moon etc were already created, but there light couldn't shine due to dense cloud) I can supply a more detailed list of the apparent discrepancies and their explanations if any one is interested. For a very simplistic account, it does pretty well I think.

I disagree, based on the amount of animals there actually are etc... imagine if Adam had actually named every kind? It would've taken forever. Also, you are only looking at genesis. A quick search in the Googlemachine yields this site. If you scroll down, there is an extensive list a contradictions in the bible, and keep in mind this is just the first site I pulled up. There are many many more.

[CoxRox]

Psalm23 : ''Now stop and think, what light appeared before the Sun was created?''

I don't know...

[LukeMC]

Psalm23 : ''Now stop and think, what light appeared before the Sun was created?''

I don't know...

If you're being serious, then here's a hint. The light from all the other stars/galaxies/light emitting objects in the universe.

If you're joking, then ignore me

[CoxRox]

To be honest, I wasn't joking. I'm not sure where Psalm23 is heading and the question doesn't 'feel right'. I'm impatient to know where Psalm23 is going to go with this....

---

Lukec said: ''That's exactly what it looks like- making it fit (and leads to the point, what else are you "making fit"). But it doesn't make sense. At the time of the noachian flood in the bible which is (regardless of how old the earth is from the genesis creation story) somewhere within the realm of 6 thousand to 10 thousand years, people were already spread out over every continent except antarctica. Also, the three main waves of human migration were out of Africa... not the Middle East.'

Ok, good point.. I'll look into this.

This is the only 'inaccuracy': the bird one. The other so called contradictions: the lights appearing (the sun, moon etc were already created, but there light couldn't shine due to dense cloud) I can supply a more detailed list of the apparent discrepancies and their explanations if any one is interested. For a very simplistic account, it does pretty well I think.

Lukec said: 'I disagree, based on the amount of animals there actually are etc... imagine if Adam had actually named every kind? It would've taken forever. Also, you are only looking at genesis. A quick search in the Googlemachine yields this site. If you scroll down, there is an extensive list a contradictions in the bible, and keep in mind this is just the first site I pulled up. There are many many more.'
[/quote]

I've had quick glances on sites like that before, and they usually misunderstand the background, or context. I will look into all the apparent discrepancies though, properly, once I've read up on evolution.

I should get an honorary degree at the end of all this studying and checking things. My friend puts in less hours for her distance learning course....