How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard

[Ronkonkoma]

You're quite right to be skeptical of a "debunking Christianity" site. Take it with whatever sized grain of salt you prefer. We encourage that sort of thing, around here!

I linked to it because he provides (as tends to be our tradition) a lot of citations and links to other things to read on the subject, and provides a (to my point of view, which I confess may not be entirely neutral, despite my best efforts) good summary of the issues.

And I could not agree more with the last part you wrote. As a Humanist, I believe that human compassion and love are what make this world tolerable, and that we suffer or prosper in direct proportion to how we are taught to show (and are shown) love.

Take a moment to blank your mind of what you think you know about the Parable of the Good Samaritan, and go read it again. It's my favorite thing that Jesus (is alleged to... I have to throw that in there so no one things I'm suggesting that I think the Gospels are accurate transcripts of anything the man said in real life) taught. And, unfortunately, most people get the point of that parable wrong. If more Christians really did grasp what he was saying, I think you'd find that more of us nonbelievers were on your side on most issues, or rather, you'd be on our side more often.

Hint: if you do not already know, it helps to know exactly what a Samaritan was, and what the Judean Hebrews thought of them in the first century. It may be worth a separate Google search before you start the Bible reading.

Thanks, will do, and comment on it. Just need some time. I just came from hungary.

Sure I just read the Good Samaritan, I think he was probably a real person that Jesus came in contact with. He pulled out two denari to help the beaten up guy. I gave some money as well to a mother with four kids on the Keleti platform in Budapest. Her tired kids slept on the floor all night and woke up with a Hungarian guard staring at them, and the store owner who happened to own the concession that they were sleeping in-front of. They were just staring at each other. "Farkas szem" (a wolf-stare, as they say around here so often). She was defiant and she wouldn't budge. I guess if they were thrown out they would be separated from her husband who was not with them. Was her husband traveling with them at all? Was he waiting for them in another country? When I was a small kid I found a mother duck sitting on a nest in some reeds in Hungary. I started kicking the mother duck for no good reason other than being a kid. She wouldn't budge off her nest because she had chicks. It was the same maternal instinct that she had going. her head was in a veil, at first she didn't understand my motives for giving her money, as though nobody ever helped her, or that in the heat of her standoff, she was caught off guard by a gesture of mercy. The guard left, it was only the store owner and her now. I pointed to her kids and she understood. She thanked me by pointing upwards. Was she Muslim? Probably. She could also have been a Christian for all I know. I wanted to bless her with a sign of the cross but held back. Just pointed up as well.

Another family I tried to help thought I was wanting to buy their son. Couldn't understand why I would be wanting to help them. I guess it says something about the world they came from. Or maybe the world they arrived in seemed so hostile to them that they didn't expect any solidarity. Even though they came to the Christian countries, often times they received only suspicion, a cold indifference, or outright hated. Another faily got on the train with a pair of twins. They each had a pair of roses pinned to their jacket. Somebody had a kind heart and gave it to them. Muslims are converting to Christianity "in droves." Maybe only to prevent deportation, because officially they face the death penalty in their countries for having converted. So the EU will not deport them. Or is it that they saw how their neighbor Christians suffered a real 21st century persecution by ISIS?

Either way, in Canada, the Christians I saw from Iraq were one of a kind people. They have large families and the kids learn Aramaic, the language of Christ. Their mass has more chanting, maybe some Muslim influence as well. They were living side by side with the muslims for more than 1500 years. I see these people as the salt of the earth. A far cry form the tepid and diluted faith of us westerners.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Umm... so what does that have to do with the Samaritans?

Or the story of the good Samaritan?

I suppose in a vague way, you're saying you see kindness and goodness in people, especially Christian people (to which we, of course, reply that it's hardly unique to Christians), and you think that's what Jesus was talking about. But it's not.

The Samaritans were people who were political transplants. When the Assyrians conquered the 10 northern tribes of Israel, they exported them over the mountains en masse, to the far side of their empire, and spread them out so they would assimilate and not fight over their homeland. Likewise, they took conquered people from the far corners of their empire, and settled them in what used to be Israel. It was a means of keeping people from fighting for their "ancestral homeland", and it effectively erased the northern 10 tribes, which we call the "lost tribes". As a result, the surviving tribes of Benjamin and Judah (from which Judea/Jews get their modern name) became quite obsessed with the notion of resisting assimilation, and many argue that this is the reason for much of the Redaction we see in the Old Testament, as the priests sought to put together a unifying, single message for all, a Hebrew Identity™ around which they could all rally, especially during the Exile a few generations later.

By the time we get to Jesus' era, the Samaritans were an amalgamated people that the Judeans saw as sub-human, immoral, and trespassers on sacred soil. They were, to the Jews, the lowest of the low. So your Jesus-figure picked a Samaritan for a specific purpose. What was it? That's what I wanted you to read the story to see.

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Sure I just read the Good Samaritan, I think he was probably a real person that Jesus came in contact with. He pulled out two denari to help the beaten up guy.

Felt I needed to quote the part I was addressing, above, so you could see what I mean exactly.
If the point was that "a guy Jesus met helped somebody by giving them money and being nice", there would be no reason to invoke the fact that he was a Samaritan.
My point to you was to research the history (which I just typed-up for you) of the Judean-Samaritan relationship, and to understand why Jesus chose that particular ethnicity for his story, instead of "some dude was on a road".

[strawberryBacteria]

I've given up arguing with religious nutjobs regarding their religious belief. Now whenever they try to present their nonsensical argument as an undeniable fact, I just nod and smile then give them a "Yeah?" or "I see" like I'd do to a kid telling me about their imaginary adventures.

[TheRocketSurgeon]

I've given up arguing with religious nutjobs regarding their religious belief. Now whenever they try to present their nonsensical argument as an undeniable fact, I just nod and smile then give them a "Yeah?" or "I see" like I'd do to a kid telling me about their imaginary adventures.

I'd agree 100%, except for the fact that those kids don't have the ability to try to shape the laws and society of my country to fit the whims of their imaginary friends.

[Ronkonkoma]

I've given up arguing with religious nutjobs regarding their religious belief. Now whenever they try to present their nonsensical argument as an undeniable fact, I just nod and smile then give them a "Yeah?" or "I see" like I'd do to a kid telling me about their imaginary adventures.

Thanks for your kind words. I forgive you. I forgive. Can you say that? 

I wasn't arguing at all. I just wanted to load a story off my shoulders. Have you ever felt like that? Has anybody ever not listened to you when you felt that way?

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Don't think SB meant you specifically, RonKon.

---

But ... you know, now that you mention it.... I AM going to start saying "I forgive you" to the Christians with whom I must constantly argue.

I forgive them for misquoting scientists I respect and butchering the actual teachings of science in order to build strawman arguments about science so they can go on telling me I'm the idiot for not accepting their magical fairytale version of the world.

I forgive them for spending time and effort misrepresenting atheists as immoral, amoral, and/or evil... especially when they compare us to horrible dictators like Stalin. That one takes a lot of forgiveness.

I forgive them for trying to legislate their religious doctrines into law, for trying to infiltrate school boards and courts of law and administrative offices through which they can impose their religion onto those who do not wish it.

I forgive them for trying to suggest that my Beloved not marry me, because I'm a nonbeliever, and for trying to tell me that they would interfere if I refused to teach my son the bigotry of Christianity, with regards to homosexuals and other religions.

I forgive them for using manipulative and deceptive tactics, with big, pretty graphs and charts, with their version of "teach the controversy" and relabeling Creationism into "intelligent design", which wastes the time of professors and scientists everywhere trying to keep America from falling completely into scientific illiteracy, with these Creationists willfully going around and Lying For Jesus™ in an attempt to convince people that science doesn't really know what it's talking about.

I forgive them for trying to be the bully about everything, by arrogantly proclaiming the most insane, untestable (or if testable, provably wrong) things as TheTruth™, as though force of personality/confidence could make things TheTruth™, and then when the atheists call them out on these basic facts, they turn around and either pretend THEY are the ones under attack (the Martyr Card), or they try to say that we are the arrogant ones for trying to use our "human brains with Man's Knowledge" (verbatim, what I have been told on numerous occasions).

I forgive them for the subjugation of women, for the psychological torment they have inflicted upon millions through the guilt game, and for targeting children and emotionally-distraught people, who do not have the skeptical defenses in place to call BS on the religion's insidious teachings, which wind their way into the mind and destroy the self-protective, skeptical parts of the brain, teaching people not to question too deeply, or teaching them to reject the questioner of that faith-tradition.

I forgive them for setting my planet back, technologically, by at least 1000 years (known as the Dark Ages), since I could be typing this from a colony on Kepler-186f, perhaps, had the flowering Greek and Persian traditions of rational thinking been crushed by the rise of theocratic feudalism.

Thank you for that. I can say that I forgive. I do forgive, and I try to forge friendships with people who still embrace such philosophies, after all the knowledge we have gained, after all the progress we have made in the REBIRTH (Re-Naissance) of reason, in the Enlightenment of mankind, after that long darkness imposed by religion on western civilization... I do forgive those who try to push us backward in time, or who cling desperately to the present against any progress, in the name of "faith". Yes, I can say it: I forgive you.

I forgive you. But I do not forget.


[/ loadoffshoulders ]

[strawberryBacteria]

I've given up arguing with religious nutjobs regarding their religious belief. Now whenever they try to present their nonsensical argument as an undeniable fact, I just nod and smile then give them a "Yeah?" or "I see" like I'd do to a kid telling me about their imaginary adventures.

Thanks for your kind words. I forgive you. I forgive. Can you say that? 

I wasn't arguing at all. I just wanted to load a story off my shoulders. Have you ever felt like that? Has anybody ever not listened to you when you felt that way?

What RocketSurgeon said, I wasn't specifically referring to you in my previous post on this thread.

[Ronkonkoma]

Thanks for your kind words. I forgive you. I forgive. Can you say that? 

I wasn't arguing at all. I just wanted to load a story off my shoulders. Have you ever felt like that? Has anybody ever not listened to you when you felt that way?

What RocketSurgeon said, I wasn't specifically referring to you in my previous post on this thread.

Oh. Sorry.

---

Don't think SB meant you specifically, RonKon.

---

But ... you know, now that you mention it.... I AM going to start saying "I forgive you" to the Christians with whom I must constantly argue.

I forgive them for misquoting scientists I respect and butchering the actual teachings of science in order to build strawman arguments about science so they can go on telling me I'm  the idiot for not accepting their magical fairytale version of the world.

I forgive them for spending time and effort misrepresenting atheists as immoral, amoral, and/or evil... especially when they compare us to horrible dictators like Stalin. That one takes a lot of forgiveness.

I forgive them for trying to legislate their religious doctrines into law, for trying to infiltrate school boards and courts of law and administrative offices through which they can impose their religion onto those who do not wish it.

I forgive them for trying to suggest that my Beloved not marry me, because I'm a nonbeliever, and for trying to tell me that they would interfere if I refused to teach my son the bigotry of Christianity, with regards to homosexuals and other religions.

I forgive them for using manipulative and deceptive tactics, with big, pretty graphs and charts, with their version of "teach the controversy" and relabeling Creationism into "intelligent design", which wastes the time of professors and scientists everywhere trying to keep America from falling completely into scientific illiteracy, with these Creationists willfully going around and Lying For Jesus™ in an attempt to convince people that science doesn't really know what it's talking about.

I forgive them for trying to be the bully about everything, by arrogantly proclaiming the most insane, untestable (or if testable, provably wrong) things as TheTruth™, as though force of personality/confidence could make things TheTruth™, and then when the atheists call them out on these basic facts, they turn around and either pretend THEY are the ones under attack (the Martyr Card), or they try to say that we are the arrogant ones for trying to use our "human brains with Man's Knowledge" (verbatim, what I have been told on numerous occasions).

I forgive them for the subjugation of women, for the psychological torment they have inflicted upon millions through the guilt game, and for targeting children and emotionally-distraught people, who do not have the skeptical defenses in place to call BS on the religion's insidious teachings, which wind their way into the mind and destroy the self-protective, skeptical parts of the brain, teaching people not to question too deeply, or teaching them to reject the questioner of that faith-tradition.

I forgive them for setting my planet back, technologically, by at least 1000 years (known as the Dark Ages), since I could be typing this from a colony on Kepler-186f, perhaps, had the flowering Greek and Persian traditions of rational thinking been crushed by the rise of theocratic feudalism.

Thank you for that. I can say that I forgive. I do forgive, and I try to forge friendships with people who still embrace such philosophies, after all the knowledge we have gained, after all the progress we have made in the REBIRTH (Re-Naissance) of reason, in the Enlightenment of mankind, after that long darkness imposed by religion on western civilization... I do forgive those who try to push us backward in time, or who cling desperately to the present against any progress, in the name of "faith". Yes, I can say it: I forgive you.

I forgive you. But I do not forget.


[/ loadoffshoulders ]

I didn't mean to say you can't forgive, it's just a matter of practice. I forgive. The wise parrot always holds one eye shut.

[Ronkonkoma]

Umm... so what does that have to do with the Samaritans?

Or the story of the good Samaritan?

I suppose in a vague way, you're saying you see kindness and goodness in people, especially Christian people (to which we, of course, reply that it's hardly unique to Christians), and you think that's what Jesus was talking about. But it's not.

The Samaritans were people who were political transplants. When the Assyrians conquered the 10 northern tribes of Israel, they exported them over the mountains en masse, to the far side of their empire, and spread them out so they would assimilate and not fight over their homeland. Likewise, they took conquered people from the far corners of their empire, and settled them in what used to be Israel. It was a means of keeping people from fighting for their "ancestral homeland", and it effectively erased the northern 10 tribes, which we call the "lost tribes". As a result, the surviving tribes of Benjamin and Judah (from which Judea/Jews get their modern name) became quite obsessed with the notion of resisting assimilation, and many argue that this is the reason for much of the Redaction we see in the Old Testament, as the priests sought to put together a unifying, single message for all, a Hebrew Identity™ around which they could all rally, especially during the Exile a few generations later.

By the time we get to Jesus' era, the Samaritans were an amalgamated people that the Judeans saw as sub-human, immoral, and trespassers on sacred soil. They were, to the Jews, the lowest of the low. So your Jesus-figure picked a Samaritan for a specific purpose. What was it? That's what I wanted you to read the story to see.

---

Sure I just read the Good Samaritan, I think he was probably a real person that Jesus came in contact with. He pulled out two denari to help the beaten up guy.

Felt I needed to quote the part I was addressing, above, so you could see what I mean exactly.
If the point was that "a guy Jesus met helped somebody by giving them money and being nice", there would be no reason to invoke the fact that he was a Samaritan.
My point to you was to research the history (which I just typed-up for you) of the Judean-Samaritan relationship, and to understand why Jesus chose that particular ethnicity for his story, instead of "some dude was on a road".

Sure, I know a little about Samarians and the fact that they were looked down on by the Jews because they worshipped on a mountain different from Jerusalem. All I was saying is that the story might have been a real happening, and I compared it to the the migrants who are traveling in Europe, who are also looked down on. They are actually the "salt of the earth" and I say that because I can't find a nicer expression for them. Some others are probably ISIS.

Jesus was actually once rejected by a Samarian village because he was going to worship in Jerusalem. His disciples wanted him to "send down hellfire on them", but he rebuked them. And how many times this happens today, over and over, "Christians" wanting to send people down to "hellfire". Still he went to the well of Jacob to drink, which was a remaining link of the Samaritans with the Jewish devotion. It was there he spoke to a woman living in adultery:

"Samaria! I came to Jacob's well athirst for thee, thou water of this well. And when thou didst give Me to drink, I promised thee living water that would never let thee thirst again. And thou didst, hoping and believing, make known to Me thy longing for this water. Behold, I reward thee, for thou hast allayed My thirst for the by thy desire after Me! Samaria, I am the Fountain of living water. I, who now speak to thee, am the Messiah."

That woman is believed to be Martyr Photina b the Eastern Orthodox Churches. She was ordered thrown down a well by Nero. http://oca.org/saints/lives/2013/03/20/1...d-her-sons 

The Samarians converted to Christianity "in droves" .

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Cool story. Still missing the point. Also, given that the story of TGS is only mentioned in Luke, and not in the first/oldest couple of gospels (Matt and Mark) nor in the biggest/last collection of Jesus-stories (John), it's questionable whether such a thing happened at all, or was a tale written by the moralist who signed it "Luke", and attributed to the life of Jesus... but that's a side-issue.

There are three people in the story who encounter the mugged man: 1) a priest, 2) a Levite, and 3) the Samaritan. Priests were, of course, those called into the ministry and were considered holy, even as we consider them so today, and interpreters/enforcers of the divine will through theocratic law. The Levites were the holiest of the tribes, dedicated to religious duties and secular ones related to those duties, and in short were a sort of "theologian class" that were considered holy and "called by God". We might refer to Deacons of the protestant churches in the same way, today. On the contrary, the Samaritans were considered (by racist Judeans) to be almost sub-human, animalistic and immoral, the way a member of the Confederate States of America might have seen a slave. Jesus did not pick these three groups by accident in the tale.

He was asked how a person would inherit eternal life (be saved), in Christian parlance. He answered (via the guy questioning him) that the solution was to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself.

The question was put to him, "but who is my brother?", and he pointed out that it is not our nature, not our race, not our class that makes us brothers, but our choice of moral action. He chose the most hated, subhuman, immoral (according to the values of that religion and place and time) group by which to give this example.

In other words, it is a story against racism, it destroys the idea that a person of one race or class or religion is inherently more moral than another, and it defines "a brotherhood of man" (as John Lennon put it).

Remember how we got onto this discussion?

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Every event is statistically improbable, sure, but some things are made more probable than others by our values. It is our responsibility as human beings to live according to our values. Values are an important tool for our brain, which is the organ of purpose. Much like the liver is producing bile, so the brain is producing a purpose to live for. Without that we will literally die (through direct or indirect suicide).

Ideas are very important because they affect behavior and behavior affects our material existence. The "just right" argument is based on science and is really not beyond our capacity to understand. In fact, the sheer number of these conditions needed for life might be vastly understated for all we know, considering the fact that they multiply when we come to speaking about human life.

You can't reduce human existence to the material and strictly empiric, because that will undermine freedom, responsibility and human dignity, and lead to many more holocausts and breeches in human rights. That was my point I tried to express, doctor.

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So I wanted you to see what your actual Ultimate Moral Lawgiver had to say about it. He agrees with one of the most fundamental of Secular Humanist moral concepts, which is that when you treat all human beings as your brethren, you are living up to the highest moral code, and the above-listed problems become impossible. But of course Secular Humanists didn't arrive at this idea by saying, "Hey, Jesus was pretty smart" (actually, I suppose it'd be Buddha or one of the other Golden Rule originators older than the New Testament), we arrived at it by seeing the horrors associated with racism, nationalism, greed, sexism, and every other form of "that guy is not my brother" that is required for atrocities to be committed.

So I'll leave you with the words of John Lennon, beneath this hide tag:

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Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too

Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man

Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You, you may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you will join us
And the world will live as one

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