What is a god?

[Edwardo Piet]

Very true. Btw PR, the quote in your sig is what I was going to fit in mine if I could fit it in with my current two I love that quote. Its my favourite Hitchens quote. If you keep coming on these forums often enough I and others will still be able to see it though
That quote rox

[Kyuuketsuki]

Have you ever seen this one?
[youtube]zDHJ4ztnldQ[/youtube]
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

That, in any rational sense, is absolutely stunning!

I'd love to know what our resident wingnuts have to say about it.

Kyu

[Edwardo Piet]

Great vid really good.
Great VS Christians at least.
The thing is though of course an evil or neutral god is just as likely (or rather unlikely) to exist as a good god.
Actually, although God is extremely improbable whether he's good, evil OR neutral. Perhaps its extremely slightly more likely that he is neutral?
Because whether the universe is good or bad is just our interpretation. Its all neutral really. There's good stuff, great stuff, bad stuff evil stuff and so so stuff in the universe.
So perhaps its extremely slightly more likely that God is neutral? Perhaps? I'm not sure.
I'm being rather pedantic lol. Either way its still almost certain that God and the supernatural do not exist.
Anyway great vid

[Daystar]

Daystar, if we assume the bible is a true account of God, then He 'steps into' human situations when He wishes e.g the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah etc. I cannot begin to grasp how He can 'hold back His hand' at some of the evil we humans perpetrate. Take the example of a child. I've read accounts of a child being abused who prayed to Jesus to help them and make it stop. (It didn't) An earthly parent could not sit back and watch their child being hurt against its will, so how can God?

First of all lets take the examples you mentioned. The flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. Why did God step in?

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I must admit that I find it so much easier, and find that it solves so many little problems to simply say that the Bible, how ever interesting and profound many find it, is simply not true.

When you believe that, all those niggly little problems simply evaporate like early morning mist on a sunny day.

Others, of course, may wish to disagree

Those with more knowledge on the subject, you mean.

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The problem of evil has been my biggest obstacle for the same reasons.

If I may, CR, I think that the problem there is that you look at evil backwards as far as mankind and God are concerned.

God can't simply remove evil at his whim because mankind is lord over their own planet under the influence of Satan. They have rejected God and chose evil. They continue to do that.

Mankind isn't almighty, your god is claimed to be so. Try your argument on kid cancer. Then kid cancer is not caused by what medical science finds but by the kid self (or even worse, by it's parents). That is both cruel and morally abject. Imho it is evil even to suggest so. On top of the cruelty is the negation of medical science and all of it has done to cure patients in the absense of an almighty god (if man can cure, what's holding back god?). Something to think about when you end up in some hospital and you are left to medical science, an event that will happen to most of us eventually.

This doesn't actually make any sense to me. Let me go over some points in response to what I think you are saying.

1. You say mankind isn't almighty but God makes that claim, which is true. God created man perfect to live forever in a paradise earth without sickness, age or death. But God also gave man this place to rule himself. The only stipulation really was that he (man) recognize that he needed God's protection and guidence. Man rejected that, choosing to judge for himself what was good and bad. All of the evil you see is a product of that.

2. Lets try my argument on kid cancer. A child has cancer which is a product of sin. Sin being the rejection of God by man and the results of that which are. Sickness, death, kid cancer. No protection from God. In other words all sickness is a result of that.

3. I don't understand why you would say: "Then kid cancer is not caused by what medical science finds but by the kid self (or even worse, by it's parents)." It doesn't make sense. Are you talking about natural selection? Survival of the fittest? What?

4. "On top of the cruelty is the negation of medical science and all of it has done to cure patients in the absense of an almighty god (if man can cure, what's holding back god?)." I don't know what you mean by the negation of medical science. Are you saying that the more science we have the more kid cancer we seem to have? Because I can see that. Are you saying that Pharmaceutical companies are not interested in curing cancer but rather treating it, because I used to work for one of the biggest in the world and I can see that as well. Are you saying that it all is just another example of man rejecting God?

To answer your question of what is holding God back, isn't it obvious? Man and sin. How do you expect God to solve the problem?

5. When I am in a hospital and medical science has done all it can, and I have been close a time or two, I know that there is something else beyond this life of sin. Of evil. You want to take that away from the child with cancer because you don't understand what is actually going on?

You don't know evil.

[CoxRox]

Daystar, it is claimed God intervened because of the wickedness of man ie vicious murders, rapes, child sacrifice. You said before:
'God can't simply remove evil at his whim because mankind is lord over their own planet under the influence of Satan'

Well, this is exactly what He is meant to have done in these earlier 'events'. He forced His will above the humans. He flooded the earth, he destroyed whole cities. He doesn't appear to do that now. It's been 2000 years since any supposed 'intervention'. This long 'absence' is worringly long and silent.

[Darwinian]

Those with more knowledge on the subject, you mean.

No, those with a deep seated desire to believe in spite of knowledge to the contrary. For example, you may well be the worlds foremost expert on bible studies (Someone has to be I suppose) but, that doesn't mean that the bible is true does it?

If it were than all human kinds unbiased observation of the Universe would back it up. But they don't. Why? Because it's not true. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one and in this case it seems blatantly obvious.

I think that the problem is that you have spent so much time dedicated to the study of this book and you have such a deep and personal relationship with its text that, to you, the concept that it may all be just an interesting work of fiction, philosophy and handed down history is utterly repellent.

Your views on evolution and Charles Darwin are pretty typical to this argument. I'm not going to argue with you on this point as this would be like putting wheels on a dog.. Time consuming and utterly pointless.

However, you are a bit unusual and certainly a departure from your normal Christian (ok, you're not a Christian) in that you seem to have an adequate intelligence and argue your case with consistent determination, all be it, without any sense of verisimilitude.

And I must admit that I normally bypass your posts in much the same way that my daughter bypasses my hints that she should tidy her room.

But, it occurs to me that there may be some nuggets of gold buried in the murky waters. To this end therefore, I should like to clear up a few points that I assume you would answer predictably but may surprise me.

First one. Precisely, what is it about evolution that you dislike? Is it simply that it contradicts the bible and do you believe that evolution is possible at all? For example, when a bacterium 'evolves' to become antibiotic resistant, is that evolution or has God directly intervened to create a new species, and if so, why?

Secondly, how old do you think the Universe is? Is the planet Earth and Human Kind the purpose or at least focus of creation and if so, why did God create 10^21 stars across 100,000,000,000 galaxies?

Thirdly, and this will do for now, do you actually think that all humans can trace their ancestry back to Adam and Eve and that Eve was created from a rib of Adam and the whole business with the serpent?

Oh, and I'm glad you're making a full recovery

[Daystar]

Daystar, it is claimed God intervened because of the wickedness of man ie vicious murders, rapes, child sacrifice. You said before:
'God can't simply remove evil at his whim because mankind is lord over their own planet under the influence of Satan'

Well, this is exactly what He is meant to have done in these earlier 'events'. He forced His will above the humans. He flooded the earth, he destroyed whole cities. He doesn't appear to do that now. It's been 2000 years since any supposed 'intervention'. This long 'absence' is worringly long and silent.

Most people don't realize that Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy of Jesus, but you, through your studies with the JWs have learned this, correct? How long of a time was it from that prophecy until the Messiah? More than 2000 years, I can tell you.

When God 'steps in' it isn't for something trivial like saving someone from death who will die later anyway. With resurrection why would he?

The case of the flood was a case of supernatural proportions. The Nephilim. Did the JWs teach you of them? Most probably had God not destroyed most of the world the world would have been destroyed entire.

Soddom and Gomorrah? What was going on there? It wasn't just this crazy story about this crazy time and these crazy people. What was at steak there? A few righteous? That isn't the point. Think about it.

Why did Jesus and the apostles heal the sick? There was a time for that in order to kick start the Christian movement that isn't necessary now. It wasn't done to save a few people from death or sickness.

[Darwinian]

Most people don't realize that Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy of Jesus

http://www.messiahtruth.com/gen315.html

I think I understand you now!!

[CoxRox]

Daystar, it is claimed God intervened because of the wickedness of man ie vicious murders, rapes, child sacrifice. You said before:
'God can't simply remove evil at his whim because mankind is lord over their own planet under the influence of Satan'

Well, this is exactly what He is meant to have done in these earlier 'events'. He forced His will above the humans. He flooded the earth, he destroyed whole cities. He doesn't appear to do that now. It's been 2000 years since any supposed 'intervention'. This long 'absence' is worringly long and silent.

Most people don't realize that Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy of Jesus, but you, through your studies with the JWs have learned this, correct? How long of a time was it from that prophecy until the Messiah? More than 2000 years, I can tell you.

Yes, I am aware that is the first prophecy. God stepped in regularly, into the human situation, during the period from Adam through Abraham, Isaac, Moses, etc, all the way to Jesus' day. So there were plenty of interventions of various kinds from Genesis through to the first century.

When God 'steps in' it isn't for something trivial like saving someone from death who will die later anyway. With resurrection why would he?

Jesus didn't seem to give this impression when he said 'whatever you pray, ask for in my name and it will be given you, or granted you' words to that effect.

The case of the flood was a case of supernatural proportions. The Nephilim. Did the JWs teach you of them? Most probably had God not destroyed most of the world the world would have been destroyed entire.

That's a matter for debate. The Genesis account seems to put the blame purely with humans and how their hearts were bad (no mention of hybrid angel/human problems. Peter compares the final 'destruction' with the flood and compares the wickedness of man. Seems we can commit enough evil now without hybrid complications.

Soddom and Gomorrah? What was going on there? It wasn't just this crazy story about this crazy time and these crazy people. What was at steak there? A few righteous? That isn't the point. Think about it.

Why did Jesus and the apostles heal the sick? There was a time for that in order to kick start the Christian movement that isn't necessary now. It wasn't done to save a few people from death or sickness.

I've put some remarks in bold. The fact is that when God chooses, He supposedly intervenes into human affairs. There seems no evidence of this in the last 2000 years which does seem suspicious or convenient.

[Edwardo Piet]

Those with more knowledge on the subject, you mean.

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You are an expert on a book that certainly does NOT mean that book is self-evident to be the truth of God. Or at least his existence. How could it be?