The problem of evil/suffering when it comes to children

[God of Mr. Hanky]

On the problem of evil, other species are much worse. When a bear is seeking a mate, and finds a female with cubs, he kills off the cubs because a bear doesn't want to just sow his genes - "There Can Be Only ONE!!!" is it's philosophy (actually, She-Bear won't mate with him while she has cubs to raise).

Why's that worse? Because our social structure says so? Bear's evolutionary system tells him to pass on his genes. If bearess doesn't want to mate with him because of previous offspring, it's only natural to get rid of it. Lions are the same, by the way. Nature's way. We aren't superior to that. It's only more hidden behind what we call civilization. But in some cases that layer breaks. Such as with that woman, who drowned her children because her lover didn't want them.

The point is not to say that we are better than animals - we aren't, so please don't go bringing the wrath of the animal-worshiping front down on me! Bears are not sociable animals, that is not how they survive, therefore they need not behave sociably like we do. The point is that violence, of the most horrific and unjust sort is common throughout nature. The human species is the only one which actually discusses reducing it's own violence among its own members, and against other species too. Therefore, the premise that we as a species are the one which is "fallen" and "sinful" is ridiculously misanthropic.

[abaris]

The point is that violence, of the most horrific and unjust sort is common throughout nature. The human species is the only one which actually discusses reducing it's own violence among its own members, and against other species too. Therefore, the premise that we as a species are the one which is "fallen" and "sinful" is ridiculously misanthropic.

The point is, we're not in any way superior. At heart, we're still chimps, defending our territory. Otherwise the world would be united and nationalism would be nothing but a sad memory.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

That's not true, the problem of evil was one the first things that made me start questioning the existence of god.

Individuals might, but it's the first thing apologists adress when debating atheists. It's also one of the least interesting points that can be made in favor of atheism. Because it's like finger pointing and the bible, which they always like to quote, presents a whole lot of evil as a test to certain individuals.

For me, by the way, the first question was, reality not adding up with the narrative.

How can you define reality when the only reality which you know is what you've been exposed to? I don't think everyone's situation, or thinking patterns have been exactly like yours. I find the problem of evil to be a very interesting issue with the theists, and like myself I expect others who respond to the problem of evil will be no less good at detecting the dishonesty of every apologist's response to this.

For me, the problem of evil and the weakness of "mysterious ways" and stupid "plan" apologetics is where I first began to ask questions. Well, to be honest it was so long ago I don't recall which questions came first, but it doesn't matter. There's the problem of evil, and there's the problem of logic, and it's useful to address them both.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

The point is that violence, of the most horrific and unjust sort is common throughout nature. The human species is the only one which actually discusses reducing it's own violence among its own members, and against other species too. Therefore, the premise that we as a species are the one which is "fallen" and "sinful" is ridiculously misanthropic.

The point is, we're not in any way superior. At heart, we're still chimps, defending our territory. Otherwise the world would be united and nationalism would be nothing but a sad memory.

OOOooooook!!!

[abaris]

For me, the problem of evil and the weakness of "mysterious ways" and stupid "plan" apologetics is where I first began to ask questions. Well, to be honest it was so long ago I don't recall which questions came first, but it doesn't matter. There's the problem of evil, and there's the problem of logic, and it's useful to address them both.

When I was a little child, the first question was based on something I was exposed to. Some priest said, god would take what's dearest to us, if we sin. So, there, that's the childish question, if an inherently evil god warrants worship.

But when I was growing up, the question was, how does that compute with what we know about earth? The answer was, it didn't. That's what ultimately led me to atheism.

Simplistic vs known facts.

[GUBU]

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Theists tend to have a few different responses to this:

#1: The "Free Will" argument.
There's different varieties of this argument.  None of which are any good.  Not everyone actually has free will, because some people are mentally ill and are unable to make decisions because of it.  What about their free will?  Some theists say that Free Will itself is why bad things happen.  God can't or won't interfere.  You know except the time that he came to earth, and healed a bunch of people, fed a bunch of people, and all that stuff he's claimed to do.

#2: "Not God's Job" argument
If God refuses to help people , then what sort of God is he?  Certainly not a loving or caring God.  To sit and watch the horrors of the world occurring around him.  Having the ability to do something, and then not doing it.

#3: "They didn't believe enough"
Perhaps the most disgusting argument.  Even worse than the "Not God's Job" argument, because it's stating that God won't help a child who's belief wasn't strong enough.  This means that child would probably be sent to hell for not believing in God, or believing in the wrong god.  So Yahweh will do worse to this boy than he experienced in life.  What a kind and loving God.

#4: "If God interfered once, he'd have to interfere all the time.  Then faith would be meaningless."
Faith already is meaningless.  Why not interfere all the time?  He doesn't sound like someone who would be worthy of worship if he did exist.

#5: "God works in mysterious Ways."
AKA: "I don't have an answer, and my goto of "God did it" is out the window so uhh.. mysterious ways!"  

#6: Satan did it.
This is basically god did it, with a name change.  God is good, so obviously Satan caused the bad thing to happen.  And god won't stop satan because... either: A. He can't (in which case Christians are worshiping the wrong guy!) or B. He refuses to because he plans on punishing Satan at the end of time.  (In which case, why wait?  If there were a serial killer on the loose, and you knew where he was, and you knew you could take care of him, why would you wait until the end?  He's already done enough to warrant punishment.)

#7: God would do something, but then you'd just claim he's immoral for it!  Remember the flood!
Why does God care if we consider him moral or immoral?  If he bases his actions around our morality, then morality doesn't come from him at all.  

The excuses for Yahweh are absolutely disgusting.  We're expected to live by his rules, and trust in a book that we don't even know who authored it, and believe in him or face eternal punishment.  Yet he does absolutely nothing for anyone.  Oh, he supposedly 'died for our sins'.  Which is absolutely meaningless when he still requires belief for that sacrifice to count for anything.  What a sacrifice!  

Children and Teenagers are kidnapped, molested, and murdered, and this God sits by idly.  Some make the claim that he answers prayers.  Either to the ones who truly believe, or the ones that are only part of his plan (he just likes hearing you beg, I suppose).  Everyone else is basically just saying in their prayers "Dear God.  Your plan sucks.  Please change it."

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You forgot one argument the christers love bringing out when it involves the childern. "God let him die because now he's in a better place basking in god's eternal love". Which is a whole other level of disgusting.

Aaand.... I was gazumped by GC. He's still wondering why I dismiss the sum total of his postings on these fora, and yet he manages to get his idiocy out and start waving it around.

[Godscreated]

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Yes God allowed this to happen to this child,  why is beyond my understanding. What I do know, this child will live forever in heaven. What if God had stopped this horrible thing and the child grew up to be a non-believer and live an eternal life in hell. Seems to me the short life of this poor child brings him into a greater life for eternity.
Now to address this from an evolutionary point of view. You believe there is no God, so this means that evolution is at fault in making defaulty people. What kind of reasonable evolution is going on that would cause a specie to kill off it's own self and all the others around it. No other species does this and we're the one called the most advanced, of coarse we have labeled ourselves. Never in all the supposed millions of years of evolution has this happened, so ask yourselves why now, does this make the least bit of sense?
The way I see it the all loving God wanted this child to live in heaven forever, and evolution just doesn't care about it's most advanced effort, of coarse evolution cares for nothing. I personally choose God, why because this is a short life, eternity is where it is.

GC

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Yes, that child is much better off having gone the way he did. Perhaps you would be happy to trade places with him? Why shouldn't you be experiencing the final moments of his short, cruel and loveless life, pleading for his assailant to stop, wondering what he was being "punished" for? It's all good when you get to spend eternity with God, so why not get in the ring with a psychopath who is 4 times your size and get on with getting your arrogant ass off to his Candyland In The Sky already?

You truly are that twisted and perverse that you will, in your bid to protect your precious ideas which don't hold up to reality, spin the ultimate evil as something positive, therefore less of an evil - anything for a distraction from the big elephant which you just can't keep out of the room! How dare you exploit such evils against the innocent! The evils which people do to children should never, ever be regarded as anything other than the evil which it truly is, so that we will all deal with it as nothing different. We must do everything we can to prevent any such things from ever happening to children, and those who speak to desensitize others with their warm, fuzzy, comforting woo-goo are the best friends of the monsters who are too big and mean to be lurking under children's beds.

You couldn't have miss what I aid any worse than you did, what can I say about a person who has no idea what was said... pitiful. I did not dismiss the evil done to the child I actually see that evil and that evil is man made. I also didn't try and put a spin on this tragic situation, it was evil but in that evil a child will live forever in heaven, if you make it there you can ask the smiling wide eyed child whether his short and horrible life on earth is worth it's end result.
Now why is it that God is responsible for cleaning up our horrors against each other? Let me say this God has put us all here for a purpose, your's may be to work in stopping this kind of violence to children. The world spends trillions on a space program that will never get us (people) out of this solar system, how far do you think that money would have taken the work against child violence, that is if the people God put here to help these children would take that work to heart and do it.
You didn't respond to my idea about your precious evolution, why, if evolution were true then so is my statement.

GC

[Godscreated]

You forgot one argument the christers love bringing out when it involves the childern. "God let him die because now he's in a better place basking in god's eternal love". Which is a whole other level of disgusting.

Aaand.... I was gazumped by GC. He's still wondering why I dismiss the sum total of his postings on these fora, and yet he manages to get his idiocy out and start waving it around.

Once again you show off your childish ignorant ways, ranting till it makes you feel good, read the post above this one and use it to help those children instead of setting on you lazy butt.

GC

[Godscreated]

All loving god my arse, you make me sick.

And I suppose you are not going to question intelligent design in the making of 'defaulty' people.

I do not believe in intelligent design, it has no place in God's creation. Why is it you and all other atheist think God should correct or stop man's cruelty to each other, we made this mess why shouldn't we take the responsibility to clean it up, even if evolution were true shouldn't it be our responsibility? God put each individual here for a purpose and if your'e was to help stop such evil then where have you been. I think you're like most complain and do nothing, this mentality leads to nothing being done and a situation getting worse. You do not know God so there's no way you could possibly understand His awesome love.

GC

[Mr.wizard]

And I suppose you are not going to question intelligent design in the making of 'defaulty' people.

I do not believe in intelligent design, it has no place in God's creation. Why is it you and all other atheist think God should correct or stop man's cruelty to each other, we made this mess why shouldn't we take the responsibility to clean it up, even if evolution were true shouldn't it be our responsibility? God put each individual here for a purpose and if your'e was to help stop such evil then where have you been. I think you're like most complain and do nothing, this mentality leads to nothing being done and a situation getting worse. You do not know God so there's no way you could possibly understand His awesome love.

GC

Wow, that is rich coming from a believer in a religion that praises vicarious redemption, talking to us about taking responsibility, pfft.