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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 28, 2017 at 1:44 pm
Quote:He did, and God said on the seventh day, "all is good." Mankind brought evil into God's creation, the disobedience of Adam and Eve are responsible for the evil that know exist with man.
GC
Won't wash, GC. God knew (it isn't possible for him to have not known) that Adam and Eve would disobey. He could have averted all human misery by creating people who - of their own free will - would have chosen to never disobey God. Since he didn't, God bears ultimate responsibility for both the creation and the perpetuation of evil.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 28, 2017 at 1:47 pm
(This post was last modified: January 28, 2017 at 1:47 pm by robvalue.)
Ahah, we are powerful enough to introduce unwanted elements into God's plan. And he is too lazy, non-existent, or excited about torturing people to correct the error.
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 28, 2017 at 1:50 pm
Good point. Pity that among those 'unwanted elements' we can introduced aren't winning lotto numbers, x-ray vision and being irresistibly attractive to whichever gender makes our glands sweat with anticipation.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 28, 2017 at 2:36 pm
Wait, wait - have we seriously descended to the level of 'intellectual' dishonesty where we're supposed to take the phrase "all is good" to mean "there is no evil"?
Does the phrase "all quiet on the Western Front" mean that there is literally no soundwave propagation whatsoever in the area?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 30, 2017 at 2:45 pm
(January 28, 2017 at 12:42 am)Godschild Wrote: (January 27, 2017 at 11:22 am)Asmodee Wrote: Perfect! That means I can know with certainty that he doesn't exist because I see no evidence that he does. I assume you have no problem with me making the definitive claim now that God definitely does not exist and simply disagreeing with that assessment rather than arguing the point.
Just because you say you haven't seen evidence of Him doesn't mean it's not there. You could be keeping your eyes closed or just plain denying what you've seen. Back at you. Just because you've seen no evidence that he has lied to you does not mean he hasn't lied to you. You could be keeping your eyes closed or just plain denying the lies you've seen.
Either we both get to make claims based on what we haven't seen or neither of us do. You don't get to launch the bar into space for me and bury it deep in the Earth for yourself.
(January 28, 2017 at 12:42 am)Godschild Wrote: Asmodee Wrote:And aren't Christians fond of saying things like, "God works in mysterious ways" and "We cannot know the mind of God" and "Trying to understand how God thinks is like an ant trying to understand how we think"? I don't what reason an omniscient being would have to lie. I don't know that an omniscient being necessarily would or would not lie. And if she thinks so much differently than we do, neither do you.
Yes, many Christians use these words, they are trying to tell people that God is so far beyond us that we could never fully understand HIm. Again I say an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being has no need to lie, it's simple reasoning. Your little digs are childish and I expect you will keep them up.
GC You have no possible way of knowing what an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent thing has need or desire of. You're just making that up. How do you know this? Can you prove this? Can you even imagine what it's like to have these three qualities, much less know what a being with such qualities may or may not desire or need?
Have you ever noticed all the drug commercials on TV lately? Why is it the side effects never include penile enlargement or super powers?
Side effects may include super powers or enlarged penis which may become permanent with continued use. Stop taking Killatol immediately and consult your doctor if you experience penis enlargement of more than 3 inches, laser vision, superhuman strength, invulnerability, the ability to explode heads with your mind or time travel. Killatoll is not for everyone, especially those who already have convertibles or vehicles of ridiculous size to supplement penis size.
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 30, 2017 at 4:19 pm
(January 30, 2017 at 2:45 pm)Asmodee Wrote: (January 28, 2017 at 12:42 am)Godschild Wrote: Just because you say you haven't seen evidence of Him doesn't mean it's not there. You could be keeping your eyes closed or just plain denying what you've seen. Back at you. Just because you've seen no evidence that he has lied to you does not mean he hasn't lied to you. You could be keeping your eyes closed or just plain denying the lies you've seen.
Either we both get to make claims based on what we haven't seen or neither of us do. You don't get to launch the bar into space for me and bury it deep in the Earth for yourself.
(January 28, 2017 at 12:42 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes, many Christians use these words, they are trying to tell people that God is so far beyond us that we could never fully understand HIm. Again I say an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being has no need to lie, it's simple reasoning. Your little digs are childish and I expect you will keep them up.
GC You have no possible way of knowing what an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent thing has need or desire of. You're just making that up. How do you know this? Can you prove this? Can you even imagine what it's like to have these three qualities, much less know what a being with such qualities may or may not desire or need?
An incomprehensible God is not the same as an inconceivable one. It might help if you familiarize yourself with the concepts of divine simplicity and impassibility
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 30, 2017 at 4:43 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2017 at 4:53 pm by Godscreated.)
(January 30, 2017 at 2:45 pm)Asmodee Wrote: (January 28, 2017 at 12:42 am)Godschild Wrote: Just because you say you haven't seen evidence of Him doesn't mean it's not there. You could be keeping your eyes closed or just plain denying what you've seen. Back at you. Just because you've seen no evidence that he has lied to you does not mean he hasn't lied to you. You could be keeping your eyes closed or just plain denying the lies you've seen.
Either we both get to make claims based on what we haven't seen or neither of us do. You don't get to launch the bar into space for me and bury it deep in the Earth for yourself.
I did not raise it for you nor lower it for me, you're seeing only what you want to see in my statement, the same thing you do with God.
I examine what I receive from God so I can know it's true meaning. Do I question God's trustworthiness, no He has proven himself to me. I've asked this question before, why would an omniscient being find it necessary to lie, that's not logical. So now you see that I have not changed the bar because I have paid particularly close attention with my eyes wide open.
(January 28, 2017 at 12:42 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes, many Christians use these words, they are trying to tell people that God is so far beyond us that we could never fully understand HIm. Again I say an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent being has no need to lie, it's simple reasoning. Your little digs are childish and I expect you will keep them up.
GC
Asmodee Wrote:You have no possible way of knowing what an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent thing has need or desire of. You're just making that up. How do you know this? Can you prove this? Can you even imagine what it's like to have these three qualities, much less know what a being with such qualities may or may not desire or need?
I read the Bible and talk with Him so my information comes directly from the source. I can't imagine that's why I've gone to the source toxins the answers I could not otherwise obtain.
An omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being needs nothing, God has always had all He ever needed and when One has everything who can HE desire anything. He does have desires for us because He knows what it will mean for us.
GC
(January 28, 2017 at 2:36 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Wait, wait - have we seriously descended to the level of 'intellectual' dishonesty where we're supposed to take the phrase "all is good" to mean "there is no evil"?
Does the phrase "all quiet on the Western Front" mean that there is literally no soundwave propagation whatsoever in the area?
God was referring to the entire universe.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 30, 2017 at 6:21 pm
(January 30, 2017 at 4:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: (January 30, 2017 at 2:45 pm)Asmodee Wrote: Back at you. Just because you've seen no evidence that he has lied to you does not mean he hasn't lied to you. You could be keeping your eyes closed or just plain denying the lies you've seen.
Either we both get to make claims based on what we haven't seen or neither of us do. You don't get to launch the bar into space for me and bury it deep in the Earth for yourself.
I did not raise it for you nor lower it for me, you're seeing only what you want to see in my statement, the same thing you do with God.
I examine what I receive from God so I can know it's true meaning. Do I question God's trustworthiness, no He has proven himself to me. I've asked this question before, why would an omniscient being find it necessary to lie, that's not logical. So now you see that I have not changed the bar because I have paid particularly close attention with my eyes wide open. Oh, so the problem is with me. You didn't say what you said, you said what you're now saying you said. How original.
You said you "knew" God had never lied to you because you had never seen evidence that he had. I said the exact same thing, only mine was something you didn't want to accept. So lack of evidence is evidence for you, but it doesn't work that way for me. It was okay for you to use lack of evidence as evidence (a "low bar"), but it means nothing when I do it (a "raised bar").
Now we can either go back and forth, each of us making you look like a jackass, or you can just accept that yes, you fucked up there. Because you did.
(January 30, 2017 at 4:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: Asmodee Wrote:You have no possible way of knowing what an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent thing has need or desire of. You're just making that up. How do you know this? Can you prove this? Can you even imagine what it's like to have these three qualities, much less know what a being with such qualities may or may not desire or need?
I read the Bible and talk with Him so my information comes directly from the source. I can't imagine that's why I've gone to the source toxins the answers I could not otherwise obtain.
[b]An omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being needs nothing[/i], God has always had all He ever needed and when One has everything who can HE desire anything. He does have desires for us because He knows what it will mean for us. So what is your evidence that such a being could lie only out of necessity? Maybe she simply desires to lie. Maybe it's just her nature. Once again you pretend to know her mind, while pretending we could never know her mind.
Have you ever noticed all the drug commercials on TV lately? Why is it the side effects never include penile enlargement or super powers?
Side effects may include super powers or enlarged penis which may become permanent with continued use. Stop taking Killatol immediately and consult your doctor if you experience penis enlargement of more than 3 inches, laser vision, superhuman strength, invulnerability, the ability to explode heads with your mind or time travel. Killatoll is not for everyone, especially those who already have convertibles or vehicles of ridiculous size to supplement penis size.
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 30, 2017 at 6:29 pm
How can anyone think they can't be tricked by a God?
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RE: If God created all the good things around us then it means he created all EVIL too
January 30, 2017 at 7:07 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2017 at 7:07 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
(January 30, 2017 at 6:29 pm)robvalue Wrote: How can anyone think they can't be tricked by a God?
What makes you think you aren't being tricked by your own brain? In naturalism, brain processes are just fortuitous by-products of evolution useful only to the extent that they enhance fitness. Be careful with your reply, rob...you might be tempted into making an argument which, in your own words, isn't evidence.
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