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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 3:29 pm
(April 19, 2017 at 3:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (April 19, 2017 at 3:14 pm)Orochi Wrote: Maintaining a belief just because you like it but don't really believe it . Is neither healthy nor honest.
Neither is forfeiting a belief you know deep inside to be true because of the obligations it brings, the desire that it opposes, and the perception of the self it disgraces.
...Do you think clergy that give up a belief in God do it for those reasons?
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 3:59 pm
(April 19, 2017 at 3:29 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (April 19, 2017 at 3:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Neither is forfeiting a belief you know deep inside to be true because of the obligations it brings, the desire that it opposes, and the perception of the self it disgraces.
...Do you think clergy that give up a belief in God do it for those reasons?
Some do. Yes.
Do all, do most, I don't know.
Clergy role itself is taking a leadership role not met for anyone but God's chosen leaders.
They might be realizing they are not fit for the role, and so instead of re-organizing their lives, they just go out with a bang....
I don't know....why they all give it up.
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 4:40 pm
(April 19, 2017 at 3:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (April 19, 2017 at 3:14 pm)Orochi Wrote: Maintaining a belief just because you like it but don't really believe it . Is neither healthy nor honest.
Neither is forfeiting a belief you know deep inside to be true because of the obligations it brings, the desire that it opposes, and the perception of the self it disgraces.
If you know deep inside that a belief is true then you will not forfeit it. This does not happen. You only forfeit the belief when you are convinced that it was false.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 4:59 pm
(April 19, 2017 at 3:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (April 19, 2017 at 3:14 pm)Orochi Wrote: Maintaining a belief just because you like it but don't really believe it . Is neither healthy nor honest.
Neither is forfeiting a belief you know deep inside to be true because of the obligations it brings, the desire that it opposes, and the perception of the self it disgraces. But you don't know it to be true, you just want it to be true. Easier than facing reality I guess.
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 5:07 pm
(April 19, 2017 at 3:22 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (April 19, 2017 at 3:14 pm)Orochi Wrote: Maintaining a belief just because you like it but don't really believe it . Is neither healthy nor honest.
Neither is forfeiting a belief you know deep inside to be true because of the obligations it brings, the desire that it opposes, and the perception of the self it disgraces.
That's the part you're not seeing. These people realized, deep down, they no longer find those things to be true.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 5:25 pm
(This post was last modified: April 19, 2017 at 6:34 pm by Simon Moon.)
(April 19, 2017 at 3:59 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't know....why they all give it up.
Most of them give it up because they no longer believe it is true. Pure and simple.
Think about it. Most of Clergy that no longer believe are putting themselves in the position of, no longer having a source of income, most likely will be alienated by their friends, family, members of their church, etc.
Why would anyone put themselves through any of that? For them, their intellectual honesty is more important to them than all they might lose.
But I'm sure, if they only heard one of your arguments, you could convince them to believe again.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 5:36 pm
MK can't conceive of a state where what he hopes is true, isn't true. That makes it impossible to communicate with him.
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 6:15 pm
(This post was last modified: April 19, 2017 at 6:16 pm by Amarok.)
Quote:Neither is forfeiting a belief you know deep inside to be true
If they didn't really it was true they would not have abandoned it . They clearly don't think it's true and thus pretending it is .Conforms to my earlier statement
Quote:because of the obligations it brings,
You can have obligation to things that you believe are true. But not always as even things that are true can be unworthy of obligation. But you no obligation to things you believe are false
Quote:the desire that it opposes,
Following a desire can be right if the opposite is false .Or you have no reason to believe it's true .Or no reason to believe it is worthy .
Quote:and the perception of the self it disgraces.
Lying to ones self is a disgrace. Clinging to comforting beliefs that are not true is a disgrace . The only way to honor ones self is to never lie to ones self no matter the consequences.
(April 19, 2017 at 5:36 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: MK can't conceive of a state where what he hopes is true, isn't true. That makes it impossible to communicate with him.
Such weakness it's sad really
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 6:38 pm
(April 19, 2017 at 5:36 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: MK can't conceive of a state where what he hopes is true, isn't true. That makes it impossible to communicate with him.
Just think of all the time and effort he puts himself through coming up with all the flawed arguments he posts here.
And the only purpose they can serve, is to convince him of what he is already convinced of.
No one with a modicum of critical thinking skills would ever be swayed by one of his arguments.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Article about clergy who became atheists
April 19, 2017 at 6:47 pm
(April 19, 2017 at 1:01 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If the faith in God could not die, it would not be virtue to keep it.
If a lack of belief in a god could not die, it would not be reasonable to keep it. That falsifiable thing , you know! Keep trying MK.
God thinks it's fun to confuse primates. Larsen's God!
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