Atheism; the next step

[Shell B]

I propose people evaluate the actions of their behaviour, become aware of the long term negative consequences that is caused by getting short term gains and modify their behaviour and actions so that they aren't causing bad things to happen around them.

What makes you think that the majority of people don't do that? Just because the outcome may be different than what you experience, doesn't mean that people aren't thinking of consequences. I suffer no delusions that all people are aware of the consequences of their actions, but I don't lump massive amounts of people together based on my own limited knowledge.

I should also remind you that every person is different. Their reasoning capabilities, foresight, etc. are all regulated by life experiences, mental capacity, education, etc. Why would you expect everyone to behave the same way and see the same result?

And to become aware of where they are historically in the big picture of humanity, and just how their lives could be so much better if they put some effort into it.

Again, you're assuming that people do not put some effort into their lives. There are too many variables in people's lives and bodies for you to be able to measure everyone with the same yardstick, so to speak.

And yeah that's what I do, and it works great for me- i'm just not impressed with the majority of humanity, that's my only discontentment.

I know that it is human nature to judge other people by our own measure of ourselves, but it doesn't work well. That is why most of us aren't impressed by humanity in general.

I could argue that your discontentment is not fault of ours, but it is your own. You are too concerned with what other people do. You are so concerned in fact, that in your mind, you are giving a job to atheists to do "something" once they have become atheists. You have appointed yourself the foreman of human behavior and are discontented because you seem to have realized that the bulk of people are not followers. They are not going to act a certain way because you want them to. It will never happen. I hate pedophiles, rapists, child murderers, terrorists, etc. That is my concern regarding human behavior. However, I realize that I can't spend my life rallying people to stop them. Why? Because I would waste my life. I may make small changes during my lifetime, but I'm not going to change the fact that shitty people exist. Perhaps you would be happier if you came to a similar conclusion.

[Cerrone]

What makes you think that the majority of people don't do that? Just because the outcome may be different than what you experience, doesn't mean that people aren't thinking of consequences. I suffer no delusions that all people are aware of the consequences of their actions, but I don't lump massive amounts of people together based on my own limited knowledge.

Again, you're assuming that people do not put some effort into their lives. There are too many variables in people's lives and bodies for you to be able to measure everyone with the same yardstick, so to speak.

Well if all people are aware of the consequences of their actions and understand the consquences when they do something stupid then we're forced to assume that society is comprised of sociopathic sadists... i'd rather think that they're just misguided or preoccupied to consider their actions than that they're deliberately causing each other harm.

And no, people rarely put effort into their lives. They do as little as they can do to get by and anything they perceive not to give them instant gratification is ignored... this is individualism and it destroys societies.

I should also remind you that every person is different. Their reasoning capabilities, foresight, etc. are all regulated by life experiences, mental capacity, education, etc. Why would you expect everyone to behave the same way and see the same result?

I disagree. I've studied peoples behaviour and mentalities and the success rate of differing types for years and i've found repeatedly that people generally act in the same way (English natives and migrants anyway) albeit unconciously. Of course the individuals opinion differs based on what he's been exposed to from the media- or should I say what the individual has been conditioned by, but his actions remain constistenly similar within the group.

If you've ever worked with groups of people, or deal with lots of people (like working in retail, call centres, customer service shit) you'll have become aware that you see the same behaviour patterns in similar types of people over and over again, not to mention people posing the same questions in the same way or making the same joke or the same body language.. most of us are exactly the same. But regardless of people currently... a new born baby has the potential to be anything imaginable, it just depends on the teacher; when born we're all blank canvases at first and the picture of our lives is painted as we develop and grow up, why can't we all be masterpieces instead of flawed and uninspired doodles?

I should point out that i'm not saying being an individual is bad.. but individualism i.e placing your own gratification above that of society and disregarding others is a destructive mentality that iscolates the individual from the group and makes organisation almost impossible.

And people wonder why peaceful activism doesnt work.


Anyhow.. people are similar, they are subject to conditioning, the ideal way to modify society would in fact be to modify the thing that conditions them i.e the media, then education. As long as people fed the right ideas they develop in the right way.. in the same way that healthy eating makes a healthy body, and consuming crap makes you unhealthy.

I could argue that your discontentment is not fault of ours, but it is your own. You are too concerned with what other people do. You are so concerned in fact, that in your mind, you are giving a job to atheists to do "something" once they have become atheists. You have appointed yourself the foreman of human behavior and are discontented because you seem to have realized that the bulk of people are not followers. They are not going to act a certain way because you want them to. It will never happen.......
..................Perhaps you would be happier if you came to a similar conclusion.

So if a bunch a people jumped you and beat the shit out of you, and then you tried to defend yourself.. would you be the one at fault? My discontentment stems from people failing to fulfill their potential to be decent people and since I have to deal with these kind of people on a daily basis i've decided to try and fix them, because they're clearly broken. Am I at fault for that?

And is your own happiness your primary concern? If so, don't think that's rather selfish?

[Shell B]

Well if all people are aware of the consequences of their actions and understand the consquences when they do something stupid then we're forced to assume that society is comprised of sociopathic sadists... i'd rather think that they're just misguided or preoccupied to consider their actions than that they're deliberately causing each other harm.

I didn't say that all people are aware of their consequences and their actions. There are an awful lot of sociopaths out there. As for people who don't do everything based on the needs of society being sadists, that's a misrepresentation of the word.

And no, people rarely put effort into their lives. They do as little as they can do to get by and anything they perceive not to give them instant gratification is ignored... this is individualism and it destroys societies.

I disagree, but neither stance can be backed up by all-encompassing research, so I think it best to let that one go.

I disagree. I've studied peoples behaviour and mentalities and the success rate of differing types for years and i've found repeatedly that people generally act in the same way (English natives and migrants anyway) albeit unconciously. Of course the individuals opinion differs based on what he's been exposed to from the media- or should I say what the individual has been conditioned by, but his actions remain constistenly similar within the group.

You said it yourself. Similar within the group. There are an awful lot of groups out there and similar is not identical.

when born we're all blank canvases at first and the picture of our lives is painted as we develop and grow up, why can't we all be masterpieces instead of flawed and uninspired doodles?

Because there is no god to make sure we're perfect. Because we are effected by genes, illness, tragedy, bad education, etc.

We're not born blank canvases. A child whose parents are schizophrenic are more likely to be schizophrenic, no matter who raises them.

I should point out that i'm not saying being an individual is bad.. but individualism i.e placing your own gratification above that of society and disregarding others is a destructive mentality that iscolates the individual from the group and makes organisation almost impossible.

Who says we absolutely have to be organized? Besides, it's natural to place one's needs over others.

So if a bunch a people jumped you and beat the shit out of you, and then you tried to defend yourself.. would you be the one at fault?

No, I fail to see the correlation. I know what you're getting at, but that's a huge leap.

My discontentment stems from people failing to fulfill their potential to be decent people and since I have to deal with these kind of people on a daily basis i've decided to try and fix them, because they're clearly broken. Am I at fault for that?

Yes, you are. You are trying to make everyone else like you. There are so many things wrong with that.

And is your own happiness your primary concern? If so, don't think that's rather selfish?

No, it isn't. However, my own happiness is more important to me than say, yours. That makes sense, right?

[Cerrone]

You said it yourself. Similar within the group. There are an awful lot of groups out there and similar is not identical.

There may be a lot of groups, but there isn't an infinite number... and the number certianly isn't too large to accurately take into account.

Because there is no god to make sure we're perfect. Because we are effected by genes, illness, tragedy, bad education, etc.

You think that only a god can create perfection? Or since you claim to be an atheist and don't believe in a god, you therefore think that perfection itself doesn't exist. In other words.. you've already given up hope for perfection.

...that is just depressing to hear a defined atheist talk like that. It reminds me of a muslim friend of mine who denounced his faith and OD'd on cocaine a month later because the fucking guy was too stupid to realise that he didn't need a god or religious rules to have a reason for living... and frankly that kind of attitude is disgusting and symptom of a deep seated inferiority complex.

Just because there IS NO GOD it doesnt mean we as humans can't strive to be better.. and genetics, illness, tragedy and bad education are no excuse for anything except giving up.

Yes, you are. You are trying to make everyone else like you. There are so many things wrong with that.

You said

What is it that you propose people do? Also, are you doing that thing? If not, why don't you lead by example? Berating people into doing "something" isn't effective. Personally, I'm unmoved. I think I will sit here doing "nothing."

To which I replied

I propose people evaluate the actions of their behaviour, become aware of the long term negative consequences that is caused by getting short term gains and modify their behaviour and actions so that they aren't causing bad things to happen around them. And to become aware of where they are historically in the big picture of humanity, and just how their lives could be so much better if they put some effort into it.

I fail to see how i'm trying to make people like me. You just assume egomania because i've done the socially unthinkable thing of asking people to take responsibility for themselves.

In any case... thanks for lowering my estimation of atheists with the god comment above.

EDIT! and i can't believe somebody gave you kudos for that. Utterly pathetic.

[Shell B]

There may be a lot of groups, but there isn't an infinite number... and the number certianly isn't too large to accurately take into account.

There most certainly are too many to take into account. Let's start with A. Africans, Africans with AIDS, Africans with autism, Africans with HIV, Africans that have suffered tragedies, Africans who have not suffered tragedy, Africans with one parent, Africans with both parents, Africans with diabetes, Africans who are educated, Africans who are not, etc.

You think that only a god can create perfection?

I think no such thing. It's called sarcasm.

Or since you claim to be an atheist and don't believe in a god, you therefore think that perfection itself doesn't exist.

I think perfection is subjective. Oh, and I claim, therefore I am.

In other words.. you've already given up hope for perfection.

I haven't given perfection that much thought. I don't expect it from anyone or anything.

...that is just depressing to hear a defined atheist talk like that.

Take a prozac.

It reminds me of a muslim friend of mine who denounced his faith and OD'd on cocaine a month later because the fucking guy was too stupid to realise that he didn't need a god or religious rules to have a reason for living... and frankly that kind of attitude is disgusting and symptom of a deep seated inferiority complex.

Let me get this straight, you're comparing me to some drug addict that couldn't get his beliefs straight because I don't agree that you can be sure that most people do not think about the consequences of their actions and because I don't think we should expect perfection when it is subjective to begin with?

Just because there IS NO GOD it doesnt mean we as humans can't strive to be better.. and genetics, illness, tragedy and bad education are no excuse for anything except giving up.

God has nothing to do with it. And you go give that spiel to the kids that are terminally ill in the hospital. "Didn't you think about it before you got sick, you little assholes?" "You're illness is sucking the life out of our economy!" Yeah, that's sounds awesome.

I fail to see how i'm trying to make people like me. You just assume egomania because i've done the socially unthinkable thing of asking people to take responsibility for themselves.

I'm sorry. I worded that wrong. You aren't trying to make people like you. You are trying to make people live by your standards. That is equally egotistic.

In any case... thanks for lowering my estimation of atheists with the god comment above.

I do what I can.

EDIT! and i can't believe somebody gave you kudos for that. Utterly pathetic.

Careful you don't get overexcited. It's just a conversation.

[Cerrone]

There most certainly are too many to take into account. Let's start with A. Africans, Africans with AIDS, Africans with autism, Africans with HIV, Africans that have suffered tragedies, Africans who have not suffered tragedy, Africans with one parent, Africans with both parents, Africans with diabetes, Africans who are educated, Africans who are not, etc.?

All of them having things in common that can bring them together.. in your case.. they are all African. See how you use the worst aspects to create a division while I use the most obvious aspect to create unity?

I think no such thing. It's called sarcasm

Ohhhh sarcasm, you should've had the foresight to use italics before then. You see how you caused a problem by not taking into account the consequences of your actions?

I haven't given perfection that much thought. I don't expect it from anyone or anything.

So why did you even bother to call youself an atheist? You had to have realised that religion wasn't perfect, but instead of trying for it yourself you just gave up...? You should realise that anything less than perfection is substandard, and that's all you should ever expect to get out of life unless you demand the best.

Take a prozac.

Let me get this straight, you're comparing me to some drug addict that couldn't get his beliefs straight because I don't agree that you can be sure that most people do not think about the consequences of their actions and because I don't think we should expect perfection when it is subjective to begin with?

Not quite Shelly.. i'm comparing you to some guy who had given up on the idea that life had a purpose because he had decided that perfection=god, and without god there was no chance of perfection. Which is entirely accurate.

Let God has nothing to do with it. And you go give that spiel to the kids that are terminally ill in the hospital. "Didn't you think about it before you got sick, you little assholes?" "You're illness is sucking the life out of our economy!" Yeah, that's sounds awesome.

What have terminally ill kids got to do with it? Just because somebody is ill it doesnt mean they flick a switch in their brain which turns them into selfish people.. illness denotes selflishness? I never even implied that.

I'm sorry. I worded that wrong. You aren't trying to make people like you. You are trying to make people live by your standards. That is equally egotistic.

Excuse me for offering solutions to a fucked up world. Maybe we should be like you instead and just do nothing and let world keep sinking.

Careful you don't get overexcited. It's just a conversation.

[Shell B]

All of them having things in common that can bring them together.. in your case.. they are all African. See how you use the worst aspects to create a division while I use the most obvious aspect to create unity?

Lumping them all together makes your expectations unfair.

Ohhhh sarcasm, you should've had the foresight to use italics before then. You see how you caused a problem by not taking into account the consequences of your actions?

It's not a problem.

Not quite Shelly.. i'm comparing you to some guy who had given up on the idea that life had a purpose because he had decided that perfection=god, and without god there was no chance of perfection. Which is entirely accurate.

No, it's not entirely accurate. It's not even close.

What have terminally ill kids got to do with it? Just because somebody is ill it doesnt mean they flick a switch in their brain which turns them into selfish people.. illness denotes selflishness? I never even implied that.

You're saying that people should think about how their actions affect society. Countless sick kids live on government aid in the U.S. It sure would help our economy if they weren't so selfish.

You've really come up with too general of a solution.

Excuse me for offering solutions to a fucked up world. Maybe we should be like you instead and just do nothing and let world keep sinking.

Your solution, again, is too general. It's not a solution at all. You could stop assuming things about people. It might help your perspective.

[Cerrone]

Lumping them all together makes your expectations unfair.

I don't think so, generally speaking more is achieved when people work together for a common goal than when people act independently.

You're saying that people should think about how their actions affect society. Countless sick kids live on government aid in the U.S. It sure would help our economy if they weren't so selfish.

You've really come up with too general of a solution.

Excuse me for offering solutions to a fucked up world. Maybe we should be like you instead and just do nothing and let world keep sinking.

Your solution, again, is too general. It's not a solution at all. You could stop assuming things about people. It might help your perspective.

Generalisation or not, my solution -for people to consider their actions and take responsibility- can only make things better for a society or even an individual that applied it. I can't think of instance where it wouldn't; when people do begin to take into account the consequences of their actions, taking responsibility and ensuring that they don't let themselves fall victim to short term gains in exchange for a long term loss -whether it be theirs or other peoples, directly or indirectly- I would estimate that people would become more accepting of those who were decent people, and more willing to challenge those who were'nt. In other words, they'd become better people. They'd also avoid financial irresponsibility and perhaps it would eventually sow the seeds for an end to rampant consumerism and it might even help the economy in the long term. Ok, so thats a bold statement admittedly, but who knows where the world could be in a few decades if people took themselves into account?

The solution I proposed is full of merit and offers solutions to the problems everybody encounters in daily life, and it's worth taking into consideration for application.


You mentioned before about how I measured others by my yardstick, but if my yardstick is carved out of social harmony, then that would be the best yardstick by which to judge anybody, no? We all judge people whether we like to admit it or not.

[Rhizomorph13]

Wait, I have a solution and here it is, hold on to your hats because it will blow your fucking minds!

People should live good lives doing nice things while avoiding evil things that are not nice. They should do this only after thinking about happy things that create nice feelings so they will be happy and avoid bad things. Here is a simple 5 step plan to acheive harmony with nature and all other people.

1. Be calmer
2. Avoid evil
3. Consider their actions and take responsibility
4. Avoid short term gains
5. Live for long term progress
6. Be good
7. Everyone is happy now!

There you go, my totally not sarcastic, fully fleshed out, not in the slightest vague plan to increase good and happy on the planet. *frozen grin pasted on face by strong medicine*

Call the UN, I just solved all the worlds problems and it was birthed by my non-belief in God.

Rhizo

[Cerrone]

Wait, I have a solution and here it is, hold on to your hats because it will blow your fucking minds!

There you go, my totally not sarcastic, fully fleshed out, not in the slightest vague plan to increase good and happy on the planet. *frozen grin pasted on face by strong medicine*

Call the UN, I just solved all the worlds problems and it was birthed by my non-belief in God.

Rhizo

So you're just going to sit there and discourage anybody who tries to improve things so you can make a long drawn out stupid joke...?

Hah.. its one thing for a religious man to be ignorantly misguided in his beliefs, but its something quite worse when somebody with some brain cells actively tries to discourage those who've taken the consideration to better the world.

Really man, people like you are the fucking cancer eating away at society.

---

Ok seriously. Shelbie and Riz, explain to me why you're so set against anything i've said?

What is it about somebody wanting to make things better in the world that makes you react in a destructive way?